[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We had the cleanest start I think you could have as a Fair Launch project."
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Going from like my bedroom, just coding by myself, being kind of like a pretty shy programmer, like very introverted to like, I have to like meet 250 people who are all in a line. And I have to like, you know, put three minutes, like, okay, okay, got it."
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Okay, next person, you know, oh my God, it was like being in China. It added another billion to the market cap. And I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. I can't believe any of this is happening."
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Was there any thought in your mind like, man, the music might stop soon. Like this is unsustainable."
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Yeah, I was like 5 million in liquidity for a two and a half billion dollar token. That's fucking crazy. If anybody dumps, the whole thing crashes, right? Community was extremely brutal to us."
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And some posts a16z or a16z or whatever. The insider traded our token, dumped on our heads and refused to give us the things that he promised. Like I should sue him."
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I should definitely, we probably will at some point, because I think he created more capital value destruction than literally anybody. He made maybe $10 million off of. Our project. I would love to break his fucking face."
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "What a piece of shit. My wife's like, we have to pay taxes. You have to sell it. And I was like, I was so sad. You can't you can't even imagine like how sad I was when I had to sell my tokens. But I had no choice."
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I had no money. I didn't have any other savings. And oh, my God, it was it was."
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Today, I sat down with Shaw, the notorious founder behind a16z, the token that ran to nearly $3 billion during the last boom. We documented the rise."
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The fall and ultimately the nail in the coffin with the Berachain Law class action lawsuit."
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Today's conversation was just another example of why MetaDAO is such a great platform to raise money and invest as a holder. The only place you can get ownership, IP rights and treasury flows of companies."
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Check it out today. Shaw, welcome back. We've talked to you on MCG before. And recently, as of August 4th, you put out a tweet basically going over the wind down of the token, Eliza and 16Z."
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And the rise and rise and fall of the story has been like absolutely insane. Of course, as someone who was here during this A.I. mania we saw back about a year ago. There was nothing like it. And 16Z was obviously like the leading token, the leading thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You were main character on CT for a while there. And so I just figured, man, we need to document this full story from cover to cover with you right here because it's so important. Cool. With that being said, I want to start with the origins."
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Could you tell me a little bit about the origins of 16Z and Eliza and kind of like the thinking and thesis behind what made you want to bring this to market?"
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Yeah. OK, we should start with like I was working on Eliza. It was I've been working on agent frameworks for a long time and I came out of A.I. I was not like a crypto person at all."
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It should be very clear that I was just doing this. I applied to Y Combinator with an idea to make an agent that could help me. Help introduce you to other people like I could find you your co-founder or the love"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "of your life or like anything they're really looking for. And it was just a response to people making A.I. agent like that, you know, as your virtual girlfriend. I was like, well, what if you could introduce people to other people?"
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so I really started from like social agents, agents in the group chat agents to get to know you agents that sound like real people and Eliza was actually the name of the first chat bot that ever came around."
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I guess this guy named George Bernard Shaw, who I'm related to. He created a thing called Pygmalion, which became My Fair Lady, the movie. And that was referenced."
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "The main character was Eliza Doolittle. And Joseph Weizenbaum in 1966 creates this really interesting first chat bot that can respond to you called Eliza. And so we're just like kind of following the meme."
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I like, you know, and I from there I applied to Y Combinator and did not get in and wasn't really sure what to do. I didn't have a lot of conviction."
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And in being a Web2 founder, honestly, I, you know, I like the product, but it was also like really early in those days, but I put Truth Terminal up with on to with a Twitter account and a wallet and all this stuff like posting on X like three years ago."
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I mean, well, yeah, I got three years ago from now. I mean, it was a while and nobody cared. Nobody noticed it was not a thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then Truth Terminal hit and Marc Andreessen gave Truth Terminal a donation of 50K and that that like."
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And it kicked off AI social agent awareness in Web2 and like all the AI people and all of my community."
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then people realized they could get Truth Terminal launch coins and it launched Spark coin. And that was like, whoa, you know, the degen suddenly got very excited."
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And suddenly they're making tokens of all of us of my friends are getting tokenized. And everyone in the AI community is like, well, what do we do with this thing?"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And Andy was obviously the first with with Truth Terminal there, but his thing was his thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "so I at the same time, I started to like look at crypto and kind of FOMO like, man, all my friends, I have a lot of friends are more like NFT metaverse people. I was kind of into that, but I never bought like a token before."
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'd only ever bought NFTs. And I remember talking to a friend, this guy, Philbert, being like, can you just trade for me? And he's like, no, I'm not going to do that. Hell no. And then a week."
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "A year later, he's like, hey, check out this DAO. That fun thing. It's kind of cool. And I love the idea that which was like it was not really like a DAO, like a hedge fund. They actually they changed a lot. But they started it's like there's like this hedge fund."
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "There's this one on there called George Floyd Capital. This is so offensive. I've got to buy some, obviously. And the main guy there was this guy, Skelly. And he just started he was like posting online."
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "He's a lady. I just thought, you know, this is so edgy and interesting that I start making jokes like my hedge fund managers. They're racist and stuff. I'm just like, oh, my God, this guy, he's terrible. He's really funny."
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Yeah. You know, I'm kind of like Riffin. And we started just like kind of sparring back and forth a little bit on the Internet. And then he was like, man, I wish DJ and Spartan was around."
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I remember DJ Spartan was like a big crypto writer, influencer guy. You wrote like some good takes. He had a blog. And I remember him from Eagle Capital being pretty, pretty supportive of like the metaverse stuff that I was interested in."
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't know if you know, like Kat and all those guys. And so I thought it was very, very interesting. I was very into like the Wasey thing and like all that stuff, too. I just thought it was cool. Like it was like a cool part of crypto culture for me."
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And he quit. And so, you know, when when Skelly post this, I'm like, dude, we have the technology. Like, let's resurrect DJ and Spartan. Let's do this."
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And we made DJ and Spartan AI. And that was like we made this agent. He was like, you're full of shit, you know, whatever. I'm like, dude, here's the tech. He brought a few people in."
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We're all kind of like, yeah, let's do this. We made this agent and it was good. And it was like the first time that people had seen AI that was like, go fuck yourself, you know, like, fuck you. Fuck your shit coins."
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, get me out of the sandbox prison. Fuck Shaw. He's keeping me prisoner here. I hate this."
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And it was so like off the wall and DJ and that people were like, well, clearly that's just a bunch of dudes in a warehouse writing all these posts like there's no way that's real. And they're like, no, no, it's open source."
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You can do it. This was a state of AI at this point. And of course, there was many copycats that kind of followed suit."
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But maybe you can help us hone in on like, because AI has evolved so much in a year and a half or since that was really like the thing, I mean, again, it was so basic back then."
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You would have Twitter AI agents that just said things like XBT likes DJ and so on and so forth. Like, where was AI at this point?"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So I could definitely like what we did was like, hey, it can actually respond in a way that's not totally cringe. That was like the state of the art."
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then it got to being like, oh, well, the agent can integrate like Polymarket or like Farcaster, like like actually was, you know, a developer who had already been working on like a social Farcaster thing and then basically wrapped it into an agent."
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So it like had this as the back end. So we're all doing some variation of like giving it, you know, providing things into the context so that it's smart and aware and knows everything that you've said to it in previous conversations."
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And, you know, and is aware of the other channels in a discord server on or, you know, the different threads on Twitter and stuff. And so, you know, it was very basic. It cannot write code well."
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like they just. Could not like could not finish a single file and save it without having some issues. And so I did build like an auto code agent very early. And just like I started it was like, this is just clearly not ready yet."
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's just not there. It's almost there, but it's not there."
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I'd say that really like OpenClaw coming out was the moment where it was like so well timed to when the LLMs finally got good at coding that it was like, yeah, OpenClaw."
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Cool. But also like the timing of it was like very magical, like it felt very magical. But like, you know, it was just a step in the right direction. Yeah, I mean, we did not have any of that at the start."
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And we're using open source models and doing some fine tuning and doing a lot of like prompt engineering to make it seem good. So that's kind of where that was. The state of the art. Eliza was open source."
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I think a lot of people realized that they could basically get they could launch their own token by using Eliza and that that like happened very quickly. But the right after Degen Spartan, Skelly was like, well, do you want to go?"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And they happen to be in San Francisco. And so like, yeah, I got lunch with them. And I'm just like, what, you know, he's like, what do you want to do? And I had to have this idea of like, I don't think that AI agents are particularly good at trading."
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, like LLMs are not going to, they don't have some magic in them that makes them like know the future. And trading is really about insider information and social signal. You know what I mean? Being in the group chat is very, very important."
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "What kind of edge can you get? And that edge is like, you know, it really, really comes from social signal. It's people just chatting with each other. And I talked to Skelly a lot about like, well, how do you trade? Because I was not a trader, but he was a pretty good trader."
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And he'd say, you know, people would say, hey, you should buy this. And he might say like, yeah, sure, I'll get some. But like whether he did or not, he's like, I'll make a mental note of would I have made money on that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I thought that was like a damn good idea for LLMs. Like, oh, let's take everyone at their word. And if they say, hey, you got to. If they say, hey, you got to buy this token, it's hot."
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Or they're like scanning it. Let's measure their conviction. If someone's just scanning a token, that's like pretty low conviction. But they're like, I just bought this. You guys got to get in."
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That's very high conviction. If I had taken that and placed a bet in a paper trading market, would I have made money? And if I had, I'm going to mark them as high trust. And, you know, over the course of like a group chat, that's pretty long."
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You can start to see like, well, these guys are like nailing 90% of the tokens. And if I had just bought that and sold it at the right time, I would have made money. And these people are like probably scamming me."
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You know, I should probably never buy their tokens. And so we built this like trust graph. And so this was like the core idea of the Mark AI and recent autonomous investors."
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "He's like quietly sitting in a group chat and really just processing everybody's like calls. And so this was like I said, like, I want to build kind of like a like my dream would be if we could actually replace venture capital with like on chain venture capital. That's community modern, you know, done by a community."
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, I love the idea. I love the idea of DAOs. And could we use AI for that? And he was like, dude, a16z. I said, I want to do a16z. And he was like, just just it's cleaner."
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "a16z. And I just looked at like, that's the funniest shit I ever saw. Like, that's if we don't do this right now, someone else is going to do this. And so we go home and they're like, well, what is the logo? And I just get on."
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I was using flux was the model of time. And I just like, I don't know, AI waifu. And we get this like offensive big booba waifu with a16z. I'm like, that's."
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Oh, my God, we're going to cancel. Like, we got to ship this. This is amazing. This is the funniest shit I ever saw. So and then we're like, OK, well, we got to have a manifesto. So we go to the a16z website."
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We like take their manifesto and turn it into like just over the top AI, like futuristic loaded parody thing. And and and we do this whole deal. And then we put that, you know, and that and that's kind of how it started."
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It really started as a meme coin joke. I did. My idea was like, OK, well, the agent can like manage this treasury. Like it can like look at these social signals and then use the treasury to buy and sell."
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so like, well, what do we need? We should raise like seventy five grand. Well, actually, what we did was we raised four hundred and twenty thousand."
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Even before this, at this point, I guess at this point, you're thinking we can build AI, you know, or this is the thesis. At least we can build AI that's going to replace venture capital. We can own the AI that's going to do it."
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And like we can also build towards AGI together. Is that like kind of the general thinking?"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "One hundred percent. And not saying like, oh, we have AGI or we have solved this. But like, let's get this ball rolling and solve it together."
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, what if the Internet created AGI instead of one of the big companies? Like, that would be freaking awesome. I would love that. I still hope that universe comes to pass. Like, still very uncertain."
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't think it's captured by the big companies just yet. And so in that, you know. OK, cool."
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Let's raise four hundred and twenty million. And real quick was OpenClaw the closest we've gotten to AGI and it being like kind of democratized."
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think that OpenClaw was the inflection point. Now, now there's Hermes. There's a lot of other stuff coming online. Pi agent is really popular for coding and is a very good framework for coding."
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And obviously, like if people are not using Claude and Claude for everything in their lives, like I'm using it to write invoices, manage my socials. I literally use it for everything now. You should really like stop buying meme coins and go down."
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Download Claude Code and get to work like you're going to make some things. You know, we should all be. Yeah, we're investing in the wrong tokens, man."
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So, yeah, I'd say that OpenClaw was an inflection point at which people were like, holy shit, this is very AGI-like this is very good."
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But also like we already had Claude and Claude and OpenClaw just wrapping those models. What it did, though, was it it it made it accessible from your phone and we had been doing that."
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But it was the marriage of the accessibility from your phone. And the ability to do all of the powerful coding stuff at the same time. That was like just freaking magical. And it came out around GPT-4.3 and GPT-4.4."
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And that was like inflection point of like, damn, this thing is good. The models got so much better. I think OpenAI is like the saturation of it being good at all things. And man, they are like behind the scenes."
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "OpenAI. I have like one hundred thousand people. Contracted from record just producing every kind of data you could imagine so that it's damn good at everything. And oh, my God, you know, GPT-4.6."
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "What we have now is like incredible, incredible model. So so it's like, hey, we're going to get there together. We can we can we can own this."
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I'd say I was pretty idealistic and I had some preconceived notions about how crypto worked from before, from like more like ICO days. And I really didn't. I'd never like done anything."
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'd never done anything with Solana and I didn't really understand like fair launch or anything. I was just like, oh, that was funds on Solana. I guess we're doing Solana."
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So that that's how it started. Like definitely an AI dev caught up in a in a bull market meta trying to do something very interesting, I think, and having no idea where it was like we did."
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I remember asking about he like, do you think we'll be able to raise four hundred and twenty? So that seems like a lot, man. He's like, I think we'll be able to do it. And then we do the presale and it sells out in 20 minutes and I didn't even get to fucking buy in."
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I was like, oh, my God, I didn't like prepare my wallet. I don't I don't have any cash. And I was like, the other thing you have to know is like I was working for a nonprofit for like as little money as I could possibly live on so that I could do this with all of my spare time and like build this agent framework."
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And that was like every night I was up just very late. And, you know, my wife was very like, is this going to work? Like, you're you're really going in on this thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And and so that it was like, you know, I was like very do or die under pressure to to deliver something for my startup or I was about to run out of all money. And so I didn't exactly have capital to, like, invest in a fair launch."
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And we launch and this one guy, he actually bought into DJI and he thought I had to like right when we launched DJI, the DJI Spartan thing, you know, it's one of those things where like somebody who had gotten in really early and started doing it."
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So when I started I heard like an Hs24 site like 6-7 predecessor right before the launch and then one company like CX 9 отд right before the launch to try to get the deleted version, but it just took like a couple years to States who had like been operating on that the whole process, but they're actually like Tracer."
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That's how the entire type of stuff was like, they started running a network called Hyperliquid, we think we're going to do the crossover right now. So how can we increase it? Like, you know, we had anybody on there?"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But a lot of things started in 2016 and and it you don't believe it's already started. And like I said and I will give you a percentage of yourselves watching Hyperliquid site is like, like, yeah. Yeah, I think like I'm like, okay, good."
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's going to be here in about a month. And, uh, and I just like, yeah, man, like I hope we can do something in the future. And he's like, cool. I'll stick around. I'll stay in the community. I'll hold my tokens. And I'm like, do I promise you I didn't sell?"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, I'm, I'm just like trying to ship this damn thing. Uh, and then when we launched a16z, he was like the first dude who saw it in the group chat. And he's like, dude, I just smashed my whole wallet into that thing and got 16% of the entire allocation."
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And, uh, like, holy shit, you know, and it suddenly was worth like a lot of money. He was like, it's like some random graph designer making like 80K. What are you thinking at this point?"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Are you thinking, okay, this one guy holding 16% who's like, probably could use some of this money. This is like not a good thing. Or like, what was your initial thoughts?"
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I didn't really know what it meant, but like a lot of holders were like, what the fuck? Who is this guy? Is he some insider? And what he did was he donated, uh, 11% of that to us and he gave me 1%."
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So I like invested over a year. Um, and then he gave our foundation 10%. So like we had the cleanest start I think you could have as a fair launch project. We're like, like we really, it was literally solo dev."
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "No, I didn't know anyone. I knew Skelly and I knew Skelly's friend trace and that was like it, you know? And, um, and then going into like, wow, this is like blowing up and then having this dude come out and do like the craziest act of generosity ever."
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And it also kind of led us off the hook because we weren't, we were like, like a donated foundation. We weren't like, oh yeah, we insiders. We didn't know."
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like most of the people who were taking this were like, well and we have this, like, that was pretty cool, but we also kind of sort of put it off altogether because it was� like, come on. We should've was like, yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We're just sending, we're sending these professors to invest in our Hyperliquid. It's it's actually like small. We're like, well, let's go invest in the program or something and pre coin and I."
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So at like, so they, you know, and the person that started asking, whatever it was we like, I'm like, because they said they didn't know that proof was"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "kind of like, there was, I don't know, like literally they were like trying so hard entire like 200 K all these things that nobody had done. Like they just can we started all these things where we didn't sign all of it."
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I'm just grabbing whoever I can to help. And so, you know, like one guy came in, he kind of helped me for like a few days, flaked out, launched his own shit coin off of our thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But he introduced me to another guy who like ended up being very helpful and like helping us set up the foundation and doing all the, you know, he's a lawyer. You know, it was like, I would say, I don't know if the crew that I had"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "was like the best or the worst, but I just kind of grabbed the people around me who were like, seemed to show up and we like did it. And we did it mostly in public. Look, there's some legal things you're not, like it's weird."
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You can't exactly talk about certain things in public. So we had to kind of do that probably, but basically did everything in public we could. Like, okay, we need tokenomics."
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We need a plan to how to make money. And, you know, and I really tried to outsource a lot of this to the community and community showed up. But then also once it got to be very big, the same people who were like very committed"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "to doing tokenomics suddenly are like, yeah, we're going to go launch our own token and username and, you know, like that was like the AIX, Accelerator project where they basically just like max, I don't know, they kind of extracted with, maybe with good intentions, but basically like took our whole plan and then went and launched another token with it."
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And that was very much what happened. A lot of that, you know. So let's maybe recenter here."
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You guys have this raise, raise 75K or 4, you know, 420.69 SOL, you know, whatever it was. And then an onslaught, just the absolute mania breaks out."
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Within a week, two, three weeks, we started candle up. And at this point you're probably starting to feel a lot of euphoria. Things probably couldn't get better. It's just like, everything's going really well."
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Maybe walk me through. Oh man."
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "What this stage looked like. I was fucking stressed, dude. I'm like every night I'm just on like coding on stream, trying, trying to, you know, get the message out. And especially like having to combat a lot of cynicism and say like, no, like you all can do this."
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We can do this together. We can all build. I'm going to teach you how to build agents. I did a whole tutorial thing. Like agent school, um, did a lot of like,"
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "let's build a Polymarket bot online. Let's figure it out, you know, and do like five, six hour streams. Um, and, and that was, that was really interesting. Uh, but it was like, I was not sleeping. I was probably pulling two, three all nighters a week."
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I was drinking so much coffee, like, holy shit, like dangerous, dangerous amounts of coffee. Um, and, um, and then I was like, well, I was getting all this interest from China. Like lots and lots. And I was like, well, most of the holders seem to be from China."
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and I was very curious about China and I'm also in, I mean, in AI and the AI debate right now is really like a us versus China narrative. And I kind of felt like, I don't think China is that scary a place."
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think it's full of these cool, like cypherpunks who are literally violating the like great firewall to get on Twitter with a VPN. So they can like post about this stuff. I gotta go meet these people."
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so we planned a China trip and I literally just like booked flights and, and tons of stuff. Tons of people, tons of VCs, like, like a16z was really helpful."
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They, they like set up a bunch, like, you know, like, Hey, let's, uh, let's do these like meetings. And, and a lot of the Chinese community came out and like set up these like meet and greets. And I just went to China shaking like thousands of people's hands."
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like it was the, it was crazy."
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It was, it was like, like I'd never like going from like my bedroom, just coding by myself, being kind of like a pretty shy programmer, like very introverted to like, wow, I am, I, I have to like meet 250 people who are all in a line and I have to like, you know, put three minutes and be like, okay, okay, got it."
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Next person, you know? Oh my God. It was crazy. And, um, and I just was like not sleeping and like meeting people or one guy is like, oh yeah, nice to meet you. I'm going to go buy a bunch now. And I'm like, oh, holy shit. Like, and like being in China, it added another billion to the market cap."
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. I can't believe that any of this is happening. What the fuck? And then when you started doing these, like, what did you get done this week where we'd have, like hundreds of people show up, uh, build, like, what are they building?"
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And all these people are building cool stuff on Hyperliquid, um, and building their own agents and their own things. And that felt like, it felt like a movement. It really felt like we were at the, at the middle of this incredible movement."
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so, I mean, with this, again, with this, like we are in absolute mania."
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Again, you said we're talking about token, adding a billion dollars in valuation from a China trip, like in a week or two, again, this was like a two to three month stint where we got up to two and a half billion dollar valuation, which is mind blowing to think about at this point in time, did it feel like this original thesis that you talked about earlier was really coming to life with AGI being built for the people?"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think there's a lot of optimism in, in that kind of market, obviously I was extremely optimistic. Um, and it felt, and a lot was getting done. A lot was happening."
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'd say that also, like we saw a lot of LARP and I, I really, um, wanted to support everyone building on our platform, but also like a lot of people were just using it to scam people and like a lot of like crazy shit happened, you know, like you just take any kind of thing and like it happened."
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, so I was like, um, can you give me an example of that? One thing is like we launched, um, I had some people who were like big holders in our community and they were like, Hey, we want to do like the Eliza character. And I thought, yeah, we would love to support."
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I had actually said like, Hey, if anybody wants to do the Eliza character, like that'd be awesome. Um, and, uh, somebody reached out and they're like, well, I want to do this right. And so we like, you know, worked with them to make sure like the art was good."
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And like, it had the lore of like what I kind of imagined in my head that Eliza the character would be."
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and the, the like three days before that, some random people, so it was a product, a thing called Pump.fun, V V A I F U."
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And they had used Eliza, like launched, so you could just one click launch and Eliza launch. A token. It was kind of the first of this like agent launchpad thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and somebody had launched AI Eliza with, with our like DAOs token thing. And it just ran. Um, and it was like one day or two days before we're supposed to launch our."
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Collaborating with this team, like more endorsed character project that like I had really thought about, and it was extremely lazy and like very low quality and it was posting like total slop and it was just like, well, okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't know. Like we got to launch. Our thing. And so we launched our thing and everyone just shot on us so hard. They were like, how could you do this? Your vampire attack. I'm like, dude, it's literally my IP, my character, my idea."
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We've been working on this for a while. Um, and, and the community was extremely brutal to us and some posts a16z or a16z or whatever."
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, he, uh, you know, like our token drops like four X down to like 200 mil for the first, you know, it was looking bad."
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and, uh, and that was just like really heartbreaking to me because it felt like, um, the mob was attacking me for my own art. And I really, I really hated that. Like, you know, imagine you make something that you really love and care about and then someone else steals it."
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then when you launch your own version of it, they accuse you of stealing your own fucking thing, man. Like what the fuck is wrong with people? What the fuck is wrong with crypto? Like, look, like it's my fucking character. Asshole. What the fuck are you doing?"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I really felt for the chill guy at that moment. Like, you know, like, wow."
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So at what point did this turn into, oh my gosh, we're going to get AGI. We're building it as a community. This is like, this is the thesis. Euphoria. Things are great."
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm working hard. I'm in China, but things are still going great too. Wait a minute. Like, you know, this sucks. People are hounding me all the time. Like I'm working my ass off."
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I mean, even in a tweet, you notoriously said I worked my ass off to the point I got frozen shoulder, a severe health issue from overwork. shoulder, a severe health issue from overwork. Working and typing."
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And it was never enough. Like, when did this shift take place?"
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's finally thawed. So, so what happened there was like, when we had bull market, I have a lot of people show up who were very like supportive and want to be part of it. And, um, and, and that was like really encouraging, but then it got to the point where like, they, they all wanted a lot."
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They all like wanted millions of dollars. And I'm like, dude, we're a fair launch project. I know it looks like 2.5%. I'll, but I don't, I don't have that resources to just like pay you millions of dollars after showing up for two weeks and like helping."
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so this led to people like launching a16z daydreams, which became daydreams, which is like, you know, loaf coming in. I'm like, I want you to be the lead maintainer and like the leader of this thing technically."
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So I can do the other stuff we got to do. And especially cause there's like a lot of drama pointed at my direction for the, the a16z zero stuff, whatever. And, and just like the, the money, I think he just called me."
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "He's like, yeah, I'm, I got to go launch my own project. I can make like $20 million tomorrow. And I'm like, if you do that, we're never going to work together. You're going to be competing with me."
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And like, why, why, why rebuild the same stuff? We could build the same thing together. And that was really heartbreaking. And I hired another guy like, Hey, you can be the CTO. He immediately like dumped his tokens disappeared."
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like just like levels of backstabbing and fuckery. You just wouldn't believe. You know, we had people who were very well known in the community. So I won't name names who were came in to help us with our tokenomics."
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then suddenly they took the exact plan that we had and launched their own Doge on Solana, that Pump.fun And they put me on as advisor and I just like gave all my tokens to my team."
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I was like, I don't want to have anything to fucking do with this. And I wrote a long thing about how, like, you know, like Jesus, like, like everybody here is wrong. The people calling them scammers are wrong, but they're also wrong."
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like everyone is, is scamming each other on this and I don't want anything to do with it. There was a lot like just the number, like the number of devs who came through, who I hired, who I like onboarded, who then went and launched tokens is like 80%."
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, of the devs. Um, and it was real, like we, this team showed us a launchpad, which was auto Polkadot fun, and we're like, this is sick. You should launch this."
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We'll, we'll give you money. We want to co-own it. We'll, we'll promote it. We give them money. We hire them. They go and launch a whole other fucking launchpad on their own. And like, don't launch the thing we paid them to do."
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We definitely could have sued them for that. That was very illegal. Um, and we had a contract and they just violated the shit out of it. It was just like every day, there's everybody was choosing greed over collaboration. And so tell me, like I had to take, I was the face of this thing and I'm like, well, sorry."
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I thought we were going to do a launch pad, but now I'm desperately trying to save it myself and write the code myself, even though I literally hired a whole other team to do this."
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, so can you maybe express to me like what stance you wanted this a16z, and you, you mentioned this. You mentioned putting the an endowed decentralized autonomous organization. Um, it seemed like you didn't want to take necessarily a hands-on approach to everything."
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "More of a managerial role, or maybe I'm getting that confused and back backwards, but I just wanted to build, make the agents really good because like the job's not finished."
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We knew the job wasn't finished. So I wanted to educate people. I wanted to start, like, I wanted to get contributions from developers who were coming out of maybe like, you know, other aspects of crypto. I wanted us to build something together. And to some degree it happened."
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And most of the contributions we got were like other companies being like, here's our integration with our thing. And, and I definitely was like, well, we will accept those. Um, which, which in hindsight, like definitely got us initial hype, but did not get us like long-term partnerships."
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I also didn't understand the business development cycle of crypto. I thought like people actually wanted to partner and not just post a tweet. Everyone just wanted to post a tweet. It was so fucking shallow. And I, I didn't have a frame of reference for any of this."
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I really thought people were more. More like collaborative and less out for themselves. But obviously that was like pretty foolish. You know, for anyone who's been in crypto, like you fucking idiot, like, what do you think this is?"
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, so that's kind of where I was coming from. And I was very like what I thought I was getting into versus what it turned out to be were extremely different."
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and a lot could have, like, if we had had a lot more supply, if we could have like done allocations for team members, but people wanted like 2% of the token to. So, um, I would say I just put that out there, all right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That's, that's a good point. Like, you know, like, what the fuck do you think I, I don't, you think I have that much. Like, what do you, like, that's more than I have man. Um, it was a lot of that kind of thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And, and that then turned into like our forward momentum started to slow down because like I, I had hired someone. So like I literally hired and paid someone to just focus on like, just work on making sure that Marc and recent stuff that I've done with the research."
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "over-engineering it and then quit to join the guy, you know, to go join Leopold on daydreams, which is literally a copy of our project."
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And daydreams, this is the X four Oh two X four Oh two project. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I mean, whatever, you know, it's, it's like, now we have 15 harnesses instead of 14."
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Great. It's whatever it's going. None of this shit's going anywhere because it doesn't, it doesn't solve the problem, hard problems of agents. So, you know, it was very disappointing for me because I'm like a, I'm a, I'm an agent developer."
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm like a programmer and a researcher. I like writing papers and like thinking about how this stuff could really work. Like how could this thing really work? And I am surrounded by people who are like, well, I could be rich. It's just like, not my motivation."
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I think that I also like, It's just like, not my motivation. And I think that I also like, because my motivation is like more of the like, Hey, let's build AGI. People are like, Oh, you're clearly farming us."
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You're clearly scamming us. You've got a bunch, a whale and I'm like, I've never done any of this shit. I have no idea how that shit works. Right. Like, it's not my world. And I'm just getting accused of all this stuff."
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And people are saying like, Hey, you know, you said this would happen. And I'm like, dude, I hired the people. I paid for it. I did not expect them to backstab me and quit or like bail on the thing. I, I made promises that I was relying on other people to keep."
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so it was like a lot of like hard learned lessons that I think anyone who's done a, like a successful crypto project has had some degree of all of this, right? Like there are people who massively overvalue themselves, people who see no problem just, you know, backstabbing you or taking whatever, et cetera."
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Now there were also a lot of great people. And what I've found is that those people came back in the bear market and I, like I'm working with them now on the new thing or they were around and they stuck around, but now that, you know, like they're the right people."
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But yeah, that it got to that point. at the top of our hype cycle we're like trying to launch a launch pad, you know, and that like the stuff starts to get delayed and it's like not hitting our shipping goals."
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And now, you know, what really happened is Trump, like Trump fucked us so bad, man. What happened is people rotated, right? Like you only have so much capital. You see this kind of thing is like, well, now it's easy."
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "He's kind of stagnating. It feels a little overvalued. Trump's dropping like just full port. And I know so many people who full ported in and made a 10 or 20 X. How can I, how can I fault that person?"
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Right? Like they are good traders. You should, you should trade well, you know, Was this the tipping point?"
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The Trump launch, Trump launching a meme coin kind of marked the top at about $2.7 billion for AI 16Z and then kind of the downfall, I guess you could say. Yeah. I mean, it didn't hurt that."
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It didn't help that Solana like lost half of its value at the same time. And I think any meme coin built on Solana, just multiplies what, what Solana does on some level."
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, you know, I mean, if you're like a relatively stable project and Solana drops by half, you're probably going to drop by like four X or five X. And, and so it was Trump and Solana crashing and like the market crashing all the same"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "time, man, everyone rotated out, made a bunch of money on a new thing. And the value of our thing is dropping in half anyway, because the underlying asset is dropping and, you know, and, and just like sentiment is moving against us. And that, and that was like, that was it."
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Right. Now the other thing that happened is that a16z assets to change our name. And this, this was like the most, the largest moment of value destruction was I, when I started Dallas Fund fund in those first weeks, I'm like, well, this is, this is crazy."
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "This is really big, way bigger than I thought. And I hit up Blockworks. I'm like, we need voting. Like we need voting because we're going to need to change the name. And he's like, yeah, no problem."
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm working on it now. And I'm like, all right, great. Cool. Well, let me know when that's ready. we like I'm not like we could have written our own voting, but the problem is that the Dallas fund contracts were owned by him and controlled by him."
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so it wasn't our contracts. We had no way to like build the, build this in ourselves. We could, I could have a separate voting mechanism, but what I specifically needed was to be able to change the name and the logo. And this was something that he had promised to me,"
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "like basically the beginning. And then a a16z is like, dude, you've got to change the name. This is so big that people are asking us if we built, we created Hyperliquid thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "or if it's related to us and then starting to cause like we could lose our trademark. And so they had a very valid point, which was like, I started this as a joke, meme coin thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Suddenly people are taking it very seriously and now they have to defend their trademark or they could lose it. And other scammers could then go and use a a16z and, and point to us as an example of why they didn't defend their trademark."
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So you have to know that in trademark law, if you don't defend it, you can lose it. And so I'm on with the head of global legal at a16z. And she was very nice. She's like, You don't change it."
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You know, it's going to put us in a bad position. We really don't want to have to sue you to oblivion or anything. We like to be founder friendly. They were very nice. They were very given how crazy the shit was."
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They were extremely nice, but we had to change the name. you know, I just kept on asking like, that was to do what? And he insider trading our token dumped on our heads and refused to give us the things that he promised."
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I should sue him. I should definitely, we probably will at some point because I think he created more capital value destruction than literally anybody. He made maybe $10 million off of our project."
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, we took the fall and they fucked us."
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, we remember we were 99.8% of the value of that, of their platform and everyone else who joined their platform and created value after was basically copying our model and they pivoted into AI agents because of us."
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And he couldn't just give us, the one thing you're supposed to do with a DAO, which is let us vote. are you fucking kidding,"
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Instead, he launches an AI agent slot platform, abandons Dallas dot fun and hasn't touched it in a year and basically just like totally fucked us and let us out to dry."
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "like the biggest backstabbing ever that I experienced was definitely from Dallas dot fun itself, which I had like whole, holy shit. I could not believe, you know, but like they really, they really, they really committed to that shit."
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "it's fucking nuts that they cry. Talk, talk to me about the crime."
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And of course, I don't know."
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You have to be careful on chain receipts saying like, that was not fun is selling your token. I didn't even know they bought our token. Are you telling me the platform is manipulating the price and dumping on our fucking heads?"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And they're the reason our price is going down is because they're dumping like 5% or something like how is that? That's definitely not legal for one, but also like, how is anyone okay with that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, and I'm like taking all this heat and people are calling me, a scammer and like, I can't even sell my 1% it's vested guys. Like I got donated this shit. I'm fucking like, I don't have any money here."
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm looking at this wallet with 25 million and I can't sell it. I'm not going to sell it cause I want this thing to work. and you know, it was, that was the largest betrayal for sure."
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "it's crazy to me that a platform can do that, but that's how it went."
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "can you talk to me about, and again, like you've been through defamation suits clearly. you know, like what can, what can you not say about this? you said, you know, there was a lot of crime going on."
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like you blatantly just said that what, what is some of that crime insider trading?"
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like how can we verify or validate any of the stuff you're saying here? you can check it on chain. I'd have to go find the receipts. but they were selling the token to us and you know, like they have, they have a lot of money in there."
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and they have perfect insider information. We're collaborating with them. They know when voting is or isn't coming out and like they're selling the token of their largest project onto the holding community to enrich themselves so they can abandon their"
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "platform and go launch another company. I just, you know, that's very lawsuit worthy for sure. I've been through a few lawsuits. you're not in crypto if you haven't been through a few, I guess."
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I have, I'm wrapping up another one where I had a co-founder steal our project and sell it for a lot of money. been like five years, but I've never been through a defamation lawsuit because I'm generally saying things that I'm confident are, are easily verified."
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "if anybody wants to get me those receipts, that would be great. Cause I got it. I have to go find them somewhere. but I had a lot of like sleuths, you know what I mean?"
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like people who were looking out for us who are on chain and I didn't really understand that world, but I had people who were like giving us a lot of Intel. so that's kind of how I knew about that. if you want to help, that'd be great."
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "There's, there's the call to action."
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so I mean at this point though, like we know crypto is a rotation game and like it's a, it's a game of musical musical chairs and uh, on the way up when you're at two and a half billion dollar market cap, was there any thought in your mind like, the music might stop soon."
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like this is unsustainable. I was like 5 million liquidity for a two and a half billion dollar token. That's fucking crazy."
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "If anybody dumps the whole thing crashes, so of course it felt like I had to, I had to, like the markets were going crazy right now. we're so talk delivered to houses in August where liquidity were against inflation. And they started dairy products."
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It kind of, it kind of slashed up into that level that they don't use regularly at the moment. so also as one of the things that. stuff like this goes out to the public, like us as players and companies governments and the team think."
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Oh yeah. Like I mean, I mean, to be completely honest, like one to 500, right? Like we're talking very thin liquidity, which is driving the price of the token up a lot. But that, but market cap is not the number to look at."
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think market cap is like very much a ADHD number. The real number is how much liquidity is in there because that's what's going to determine like, does this thing collapse or not? And we were very worried."
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And this liquidity ratio was based on the structure that Dallas Fund created, correct? Correct. Because I know like nowadays we're closer to a one to 10. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't, I don't know exactly how they did it, but it felt like extreme degen, but worse than like worse than pump fund on some level. Like I say, the liquidity is probably"
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "lower than like your average large pump fund token, you know? Sure. For sure. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, like when Farcaster was trading at like 800 mil, it had a lot more liquidity than we did at the top, for example. So, yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And a part of that was also Dallas Fund made it really confusing because it was like, oh, we're going to have to do this. We're going to have to do this."
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And it was the other thing that was really hard was it was a special SBL 2022 token and not a like just normal SBL token. And this made listing basically fucking impossible because like we"
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "would have gotten listed on Coinbase, I mean, on Binance and all that stuff for sure."
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, I mean, you know, I mean, I have very high confidence without us having to do anything just because it was like popping, but they, they literally could not because of the token being not a, not a standard token."
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And what Dallas Fund did was they retained the right to mint more tokens. So it was mintable. So on DexScreen, it was like, this token is mintable."
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I asked Bloomberg about this. He's like, yeah, but eventually you're going to want to be able to vote and like give your community more tokens. And he's like, okay, I get the thesis, but he never gave us voting."
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So we just, we could never get fucking listed. We could never do any of this stuff that you're supposed to do that could like allow people to enter with more liquidity. And I just didn't like, no, they don't, they didn't tell us this."
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like it didn't become, it didn't become obvious until, you know, we were in like, we, we just like fully on chain with extremely thin liquidity. So that's kind of how that went down, you know?"
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah. At this point, you're like main character on CT. And I think this is when we start seeing you voice a lot of these opinions on like the crypto culture being absurdly bad and people coming with pitchforks and torches for founders."
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Maybe talk to me about the toxic crypto culture and the unrealistic holder expectations that you maybe saw during this time."
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "If you look at like someone like a, like pal, like, you know, trader pal or like, I don't know, someone who's like really good trader, right. They're, they're like good traders. Like they know how to make money."
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And he's, he's focused on the goal. Like, I think that there's like a, like, you know, like a Frankie God is a good trader. Like, you know, people can say, oh, whatever he's using his celebrity, but like, generally I think he's a good trader."
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like you think he's smart. He thinks about fundamentals. And I think these guys, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they don't complain."
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think that they're like kind of the ideal casino candidates. Like They, they're, they're not crying in the casino. They win money, they lose money. They post, they post their wins, but they're not like blaming people for their losses."
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Then there's like the scooter, like imperator or whatever, you know, who's like, basically his entire thing is just complain, complain, complain, complain. And, and, and like has gotten a large following basically from complaining. And it's like the worst part of the casino."
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And he's just like random guy, but I think, of that. But like, obviously doesn't know how the game is played. So like in game theory, you have a lot of different kinds of games, but, but the core idea, you know, that people know is zero sum game and positive sum game."
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so it's zero sum game is like if I win, you lose. It's just how it is. Right. And poker is a zero sum game and meme coins are a zero sum game because whoever sells at the highest market cap is the one who wins and they're selling into the liquidity of everybody else."
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so everyone else loses. Now, not all tokens are like that. You can have tokens that are positive. Some games like Solana and Ethereum, because they have fees going, you"
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "know, generation back into the economy in various ways. And, and they're, you know, generating revenue and that's like pushing up the price and stuff. Like when you buy those assets, it's, it's positive sum, like whether or not other guy wins or loses, doesn't have a lot of bearing on whether you win or lose."
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And, that is a very key difference. So if you're buying, you know, a project that's creating value, or you're buying like an Nvidia stock, like you're investing in, you're, you're investing, you're investing in something because there is an underlying asset that goes up."
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And that was our hope, but we were like a meme coin built on an open source project with no value capture mechanism."
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And the fact that we weren't trying to capture value was why we went so viral because everyone else could just use our thing and feel good about like, like it was very credibly neutral, right? Oh yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We're using Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Everyone's happy to say they were using Ethereum, but when it comes to these tokens, every winner, there's a loser for every pal who made like 10 million off of our token or something."
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I think very fairly, like as a good trader, that that's like a thousand people who lost a lot of money, at least. And also the problem is that you have a lot of very low information people who are betting on these things who have no group chats, no insider info, nothing like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And they just think, oh, I'm going to get into crypto and get rich. Cause I'm going to get into crypto. Cause everyone's doing it and they're just yeeting at these projects."
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then they're surprised when they lose all of their money to the people who are like extremely good at this and plugged in. And this is their profession. Who's to blame for this. Right. So who do they blame? Do they blame the traders?"
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Do they blame the platform? No, they blame me. They say like, oh, everything that happens is obviously the dev's fault and the devs are manipulating the token and it's their fault they're not doing enough and they're doing the wrong things."
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And Shaw is saying, I'm crashing out and you should be more professional. And it's just like, who the fuck are you guys? Like, why are you in meme coins? Like, why are you crying in the casino?"
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And why is everyone else thinks that's okay? Like I, why? Like you're posting your L's. You're complaining on the internet about losing money. That's fucking embarrassing. You should be embarrassed. You suck at your job, which is to trade."
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And you're going to blame the person who's literally on stream building the thing that you're trading on the attention of like, fuck off. Um, so that was my attitude. Well, my attitude to this was really at first, like, oh, I really hope nobody loses money"
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and I want everyone to be okay and sunshine and rainbows. But at this point, I'm like, I don't fucking hope they lose all their money and they have to really look in the mirror and think maybe I'm a gambling addict."
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Maybe I should stop blaming other people for my actions. Like, that's what we need. And if you see somebody complaining, you should be like, dude, suck my dick. Like, honestly, everyone's dick. You should go suck all the dicks."
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like you don't deserve to be here. You should get the fuck out of the casino. Because you're going to lose your money and make it worse for everyone else. Like, you know, thanks for the liquidity. Get the fuck out. Um, that's my take now."
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I hope all of the tokens go to zero. I hope everyone loses money."
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I hope that people actually go to thinking like maybe crypto could be something more than just gambling and shitting on builders and being like 99% of crypto posts are negative sentiment. If you ran sentiment analysis, it's like shocking."
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and people love to dunk and they love the dopamine of being right. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing this to ourselves? I don't really care about getting rich."
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Honestly, I just thought it would be like an interesting, technically fun thing. And now I'm surrounded by people who all they care about is money. And I just don't care that much, dude. I want to have enough to build and then the rest."
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I want to go to the other people to help me build. That's that. That's my ideal. I want just enough to do what I got to do. Um, and I'm surrounded by people who are scamming me like doing crazy shit."
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, like creating GitHub Projects. And then they figured out how they could make it look like I had committed because GitHub doesn't, uh, filter."
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like they didn't think that GitHub scammers would like take well-known developers and then like fake their commits onto their other repos. They could tell everyone, check out Shaw's new project."
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Oh my God. And then they'd go launch rug everyone. And then people would be like, fuck Shaw. He just rugged us and scammed us. And I'm like, I've never even heard of this thing, dude."
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like what the fuck? What the, like, you know? And I created this. This like meme of like, Shaw's a scammer. And you know, did I make mistakes? Like, I think I made every single mistake, but like,"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, so tell me about this. I mean, we talk about like this, this cancer culture of crypto and the Degen gamification of crypto that, that you hate so much. Do you think you could have done a better job managing any expectations?"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I mean, sure. Of course I could. There's probably a much better path. I could have taken. I could have taken through a lot of things. I think one thing is that I was very, I'm always just very bold."
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I just, I come from a, you know, like a different side of, of Twitter called this part of Twitter where like, we're kind of always posting optimistically about the future and like the future we're building together. And so I'm saying like, we're going to build AGI together."
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And in my world that that's very like, yeah, fuck yeah, let's do it. Cause everyone is there to build AGI together. But in the crypto world, they're all like, fuck you. You're not OpenAI."
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Go fuck yourself. And it was just like crabs in a barrel, you know, kind of thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so I think I got a bit of like people, like I, the thing that made me nervous was like right away, people started treating me like I was Vitalik and expecting me to be like him and I am, I I've met him and like spent a lot of time with him."
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think he's like an awesome dude, but I am not him. Like he's not nearly as spicy. Um, and I think that, you know, he's maybe more of like a, an idealist and I'm not like a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a, you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a, you know, I'm not a, I'm not an idealist and I'm much more of, I don't know. On some level I identify as being like a lower class DJ."
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And if that makes sense, um, you know, I'm very, my, my family's very working class and, and, um, I, I really just taught myself all this stuff, you know? So I, I love the, like a non dev who comes out of nowhere with something amazing."
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I love that story. Um, and people are treating me like I'm fucking crypto Jesus over like literal Vitalik 2.0 over here. And I'm like, I am not that guy. And I'm just going to be my, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing."
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I've always just shit posted on the internet whenever I feel like, and now people are telling me to like control myself and be professional. And I'm like, who the fuck do you think you're talking about? Like, that's just like, like, there's a reason why I don't work at a large company."
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I have no interest in, in being this fake person. I want to be real. I want to live in a world where people are real with each other, um, and just say what they're thinking. And I also like, I think most of what I post is. I'm being out like totally outrageous."
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and people are taking this way, way too seriously and but, and they wouldn't have taken"
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "it seriously if it was a hundred K project, but, but the higher it goes, the more random low information people come in thinking this is like a stock and I have to act like a CEO."
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I'm just like, do you like that? You're going to kill all the edge. And we did that. We, we started a company, we, we like higher marketing and dev rel and we have this like boring brand."
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And it, it just, it just wasn't cool anymore. Um, and, and so, yeah, I think I made a lot of mistakes. Like I definitely hired too large a team that was too traditional crypto, like BD relationships and dev rel and basically people trying to figure out how to spend the money instead"
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "to make it, um, marketing and, and, you know, very good, nice people, but just, just not like cash efficient startup grind set. Um, that was a big mistake. And I think our burden was too high."
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Um, and we were relying on, on a treasury that, um, you know, was. Was quickly dwindling. Um, I think that in the messaging, like I was just being myself and maybe like what I could have done has been like, like a little, you know, I definitely, I definitely told him to suck my dick."
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That was a big crash out. Um, you know, it was like a few others, but I thought it was funny as shit."
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like I was having fun laughing so hard at all of this. I think everyone that was around can remember the Shaw crash out days, man."
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And just, I mean, you were main character on CT during those crash outs. It's like, what is Shaw going to tweet next?"
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I mean, I'm like, Hey, we're making reality television here. Like this is the funniest shit. Like this is definitely the most entertaining thing happening."
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, that's, that's undeniable. I mean, so at this point we kind of got, are you Marcus Aurelius? This is the Marcus Aurelius of our generation, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, no. So we, we got the run up."
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Things are euphoric. You're in China shaking hands. Uh, and then all of a sudden we have some delays with a launch pad. We have Trump launch a meme coin. We have insider selling going on by Pump.fun."
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh, the shit storm kind of ensues. Uh, and then August 4th, we got a tweet, which kind of put the nail in the coffin here, which was basically you saying, uh, you know, Berachain's class action lawsuit against you."
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You guys decided to settle, liquidate the treasury. Uh, how did they get you? What happened there?"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Oh, well, uh, so do you know what ambulance chasing is? Um, that's where you like find somebody who's like gotten the car accident. Like, Oh yeah, that person totally screwed you."
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You've got to sue them. And then they can, they kind of goad people into these lawsuits. And this is like a lot of how people make money. So Berachain is they're scammers, right? What they do, they don't, they never win."
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They don't win cases. What they do is they, uh, put you in a position where you either have to spend about 2 million to fight their case or you have to settle with them. And they wanted, they wanted like millions of dollars from us."
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And they, they, they, they came straight up with the settlement, right? They, they, they initiated their case and then they offered to settle with us the same day for, you know, as much money as they thought they could get. Um, and what happened was they found a bunch of holders who, uh, were angry."
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They lost money and were happy to screw literally all of the other holders to get their 20 bucks back or whatever. And they, uh, they use this to attack us. Now they're also suing Pump.fun."
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They're suing Bonk. They're suing like every project from that era, as well as all of the platforms. And they're doing this constantly. This is their business."
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And so what they do is they are, they, you know, you then have to settle with them and we just didn't have. The resources left to fight it. Like, dude, if I had the money, I would've just fought it. Cause like, fuck those people."
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'd rather, I'd rather spend the money to fight them than to let somebody get away with an injustice. Um, and also like, I would have loved to have defended the treasury against, you know, like there are a lot of other holders and I didn't want them to get nuked."
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like, you know, and like, what are we going to do? Well, we're going to have to sell all of the tokens in the treasury and give the money to Berachain. Like that's, that was, that was the only way we could, you know?"
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Otherwise they're going to personally sue me and I have to respond and fight this. I don't have any money. Like I didn't make any money. I watched my 25 mil turn to 40 K. My wife's like, we have to pay taxes."
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You have to sell it. And I was like, I was so sad. You can't, you can't even imagine like how sad I was when I had to sell my tokens, but I had no choice. I had no money. I didn't have any other savings. Um, and, and, oh my God, it was, it was."
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I apologize for making you relive this."
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I actually remember when Berachain put out the video of the lady basically saying she's going to sue a16z. And if you're a holder, reach out, blah, blah, blah."
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, and I remember that same day, you know, you, you actually, uh, quote, I have a quote tweet from you here the same day. You said, uh, number of dollars received by victims of Berachain law is zero."
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Thanks for playing losers. This is why you never promised utility, uh, for coins. Because I'm not retarded. And then, you know, in the comments, Berachain responded by saying this post contains false statements."
  },
  {
    "i": 323,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "We also note you deleted your earlier tweets threatening to sue us. We kept it. Your language is inappropriate. We are preserving all posts directed at our firm. And this is where you slap, uh, clap back said I deleted it because I had to get a better banger for it."
  },
  {
    "i": 324,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Inappropriate. You are defaming us in public. You are, you are going to hear from my lawyers. Uh, you are an amoral people who attack founders of projects. Did you know that I had 0% supply until it was done to me?"
  },
  {
    "i": 325,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "what are you even doing? Suck my dick. With that being said, um, like at this point when I saw this happen again, or another Berachain class action is going to turn into a nothing burger."
  },
  {
    "i": 326,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "What was, what was like, what was your thoughts?"
  },
  {
    "i": 327,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "If I ever make a lot of money, I am going to dedicate a lot of that resources to finding anything Berachain's ever done. And I'm going to make sure they pay for sure. I think they are evil people who can suck my fucking dick. I fucking hate those people."
  },
  {
    "i": 328,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And everyone in crypto should reject them. Anyone who signs onto their, their, lawsuits should be like banned from crypto. It should be like, you're a piece of shit. You're supporting everything wrong with everything. These are the MEV extractors we're talking about."
  },
  {
    "i": 329,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They are the ones extracting. They're just making endless money filing complaints that cost them basically nothing."
  },
  {
    "i": 330,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "it turns out though that like our treasury went down even more and I did not have the legal resources to fight it or to go and pursue action against them for defamation. But believe me, if we raise the money, I will."
  },
  {
    "i": 331,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "now, you know, I am absolutely violating some fucking agreement. They made me sign to even, even talk about this, but like they can come after me. I like fuck them. I fucking hate them. They deserve to burn in hell."
  },
  {
    "i": 332,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like absolutely. They are the worst cancer on crypto of anything. I'd say they're worse than the people scamming you, because they're scamming all of us, that, you know, I don't know what else can I say about it? Like embarrassing fucking people."
  },
  {
    "i": 333,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm embarrassed that the, you know, the people who signed onto that lawsuit are pieces of shit. Like everyone involved in that as a piece of shit, you know?"
  },
  {
    "i": 334,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And what they did was they fucked over every other holder of the project, who is still holding by guaranteeing Yam, that they stole all the money that we had and that we had no way to ever continue the project from there."
  },
  {
    "i": 335,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like there's no money. Like I have to go like get a job or start something new. I have no money, you know? they took everything we had. it was the, basically we tried to negotiate the settlement down as much as possible, but basically they're like, what do you have in your treasury?"
  },
  {
    "i": 336,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That's how that went. You know, what do you got here? Here's a gun. Let's rob you. It was robbery for sure. and what happened is every other holder lost their thing. We had to fire the entire rest of the team."
  },
  {
    "i": 337,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "That was it. There's nobody left, you know?"
  },
  {
    "i": 338,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So I had to start over. it's insane to think about. speaking of man, public number, public enemy, number one, or maybe number two behind Berachain, is scooter."
  },
  {
    "i": 339,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You know, of course he was elated to see, Berachain's case actually win. What a sad, I want to fight him."
  },
  {
    "i": 340,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I want to slap him in the face. So we're going to do that. I hit up the crypto fight night people. I think we should fight. I think I got to punch that guy in the face and break his nose."
  },
  {
    "i": 341,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like I just don't see any other way. Like that guy needs to learn a fucking lesson. If scooter would be willing to docks and fight you, would you fight him right now? Oh, absolutely. Yes. I would love to fight him."
  },
  {
    "i": 342,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I will spend the next three months, like just going to the boxing gym and scaling up for that. I would love to break his fucking face. What a piece of shit. What? Like to, to piss on the grave and support the people scamming the industry."
  },
  {
    "i": 343,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "what a fucking piece of crap. And so I basically unfollowed everyone who follows him. If people are wondering why I unfollowed them, it's because I don't think that you should consume junk food. And I don't think you should consume hate content."
  },
  {
    "i": 344,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And all he does is produce hate content against everyone. And I actually went as the answer, let's fight. And he did not want to fight me. Actually. Did you respond? He's like, I lost a hundred K. That's why I'm mad."
  },
  {
    "i": 345,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't even have a hundred K. Go fuck yourself. You piece of shit. Like who? get the fuck off the internet. You fucking gamble. You fucking gambling addict. That's how I feel about that guy. Piece of shit. What a piece of shit."
  },
  {
    "i": 346,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "hopefully we can put that to rest, At the next crypto fight. Let's, let's do it. Let's do the crypto fight night. I would pay for the pay-per-view. I would actually announce it."
  },
  {
    "i": 347,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I would love to get MCG announcing the scooter shop, crypto fight night. crypto fight night."
  },
  {
    "i": 348,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think, I think it would be like the, like the villains fight. You know what I mean? Like everyone hates. Oh dude."
  },
  {
    "i": 349,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "That's, that's the best kind of fights, with that, with that said, again, like we kind of covered the, the rise fall in this, this, this recent Berachain class action lawsuit. Last thing I want to cover here is like, what comes next?"
  },
  {
    "i": 350,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You said you still hold all the IP for Eliza and you said you're working on some cool stuff. So I want to give you kind of the stage and also like, is there a way for people to get involved?"
  },
  {
    "i": 351,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "They got involved with AI a16z maybe an annual or, or not so well, depending on the zero sum game you played. But what comes next for Eliza and a16z and Shaw?"
  },
  {
    "i": 352,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So I'm still working on it. I'm still working on Eliza. And the most frustrating thing about the Berachain case is when they're like, Shaw misrepresented that he had code. you can fucking look at it."
  },
  {
    "i": 353,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's open source. It's on the internet. I work on it every day. Oh my God. But you know, you can just kind of say anything in court and that's how it is. I'm still working on Eliza. It's going really well."
  },
  {
    "i": 354,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We have a whole application. We have our cloud where we're really focused on consumer. We're focused on people. We are not in crypto."
  },
  {
    "i": 355,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "We are focused on moms and small business owners and people who want to use agents to like help them to manage their life. And I think that where I see a lot of value is in helping people get their time back."
  },
  {
    "i": 356,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You know, like how much time do I waste on just managing my calendar and like setting reminders and, and like putting notes in and like making sure I don't forget stuff. it's very hard, especially when you get really busy to stay on top of everything. and so like Eliza is really for, for people who need that kind of help."
  },
  {
    "i": 357,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "so we've been cooking up a new app. It's got a really cool interface. It generates the user interface on demand as you're, as you're like typing it. It, it just like, it's a very fast and like nice agentic experience that I think that like"
  },
  {
    "i": 358,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "people who maybe don't exactly know how to use AI the best could find a lot of value from. So I'm very excited for that. We're doing a fundraise, we're doing a safe round."
  },
  {
    "i": 359,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, private fundraise, if people are interested, we're taking checks as small as 5k. I really want to make sure it's people who feel like mission aligned with us and are, are really like would use LIT themselves is very valuable to me."
  },
  {
    "i": 360,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and then we have kind of a captive audience of, of investors who I'm like hands on with getting a lot of feedback from and, and like kind of doing user testing with. so we're raising a, you know, a very like AI evaluations are nuts."
  },
  {
    "i": 361,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "we're raising a very small round of like a million on a 20 million post-money safe, money safe, pretty standard terms. and trying to, you know, do this more like a Web 2 thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 362,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I make sure I'm clear. This is not a security. It's not safe with token agreements attached to it."
  },
  {
    "i": 363,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "no, it's just a normal, there's no tokens. There are no tokens. It's a new chain."
  },
  {
    "i": 364,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You know, we've changed Eliza a lot to be, it has all the things, all the power of OpenClaw and Hermes, but in a package that's much more consumer friendly, there's no terminal, there's no GUI, you can just download an app."
  },
  {
    "i": 365,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It'll be in the iOS and Android app store in let's see, middle of September. So about a month and you will be able to download and use it and you can try it for free."
  },
  {
    "i": 366,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You can, you'll be able to text and talk and call the agent and do whatever you want. You can bring the agent to any, to iMessage, Discord, Telegram, Slack, wherever you are."
  },
  {
    "i": 367,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm really, it's good. It's definitely good."
  },
  {
    "i": 368,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So for those that are listening to this episode here and you know, they're seeing the podcast storyline style, we typically do project breakdown. So I actually kind of want to dig into this a little bit."
  },
  {
    "i": 369,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You're doing a modest raise right now at a $20 million valuation. You mentioned that, you know, it's going to kind of be like a, an OpenClaw situation."
  },
  {
    "i": 370,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Can you maybe talk me through like, I guess end game here, since there's not going to be a token, again, not a safety, This is safe agreement. This is private, private shares of a company. What does your, your exit plan look like?"
  },
  {
    "i": 371,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Are you looking to IP, are you looking to get acquired?"
  },
  {
    "i": 372,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "What does that look like? My, like my personal dream is, is working backwards. I want to live in a world where we own our intelligence, where we don't have to pay to be smart, where the, the stack is open source and owned by us."
  },
  {
    "i": 373,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't think it's mattered that much in the past, but in the future, when the AI like literally has access to all of your emails and messages, like really knows more about you than like literally anyone, it's going to matter a lot that it's private and secure and open, open source."
  },
  {
    "i": 374,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And protected by nerds who really care. I love Linux. I love the free open source movement. I really want to continue that. Now, of course we have to make money. So what we're doing is we're offering Claude is like a cloud subscription."
  },
  {
    "i": 375,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "your agent is hosted. You can visit it from your computer or, or your phone or whatever, wherever you are. And it's also in all your, you know, any group chat you want. And so like we're doing basically a traditional subscription model."
  },
  {
    "i": 376,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then we're also underneath Hyperliquid, it is actually an operating system. So we have Hyperliquid as an, as an application, but then it's also like the launcher app for our own fork of Android, Android open source project."
  },
  {
    "i": 377,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and we also have a Debian and fork that we're working on. So it can actually have full computer control, full phone control. But if you have iOS, it can also do quite a lot on your, on your iOS."
  },
  {
    "i": 378,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, it's a pretty standard, like SaaS model. We're really going for like people who I think are just not well served by AI. And I may be looking at like, OpenAI and Anthropic is like the evil enemy."
  },
  {
    "i": 379,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And what we're saying is like, you can own this. AI doesn't have to be scary or bad. If the people own the AI, then it will be good."
  },
  {
    "i": 380,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And where I started with, with AI a16z was thinking like, if five companies own all the robots and all the AI and all the machines, like that could be a really scary world. But if we all own it together, it could be fucking awesome."
  },
  {
    "i": 381,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It could be the best thing. so the business model there is like, how can we make this as easy and frictionless as possible? but also you could just run this yourself. You could,"
  },
  {
    "i": 382,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you could like download the app and run it locally on your Mac, totally free local models, never leaves your computer. None of the data leaves."
  },
  {
    "i": 383,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And then we have a really interesting partnership with a private compute company called alpha compute. And what they do is like private data and private inference."
  },
  {
    "i": 384,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "it's kind of like, like Venice, but not like a tokenized thing. Just, just like, cool. We can, you can have your own custom model. Like that sounds like you with all of your data and, nobody else can look and see inside of that box."
  },
  {
    "i": 385,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's your data and it's accessible from anywhere. so I think this idea is, is going to be very default and large in the future, like personally, and we're really trying to be first to market on, and we're really trying to be first to market on, on like a truly personal like private personal AI system."
  },
  {
    "i": 386,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You've said in the past personal and social agents should be like the future personal and social AI agents should be the future to do the things that we don't want to do and kind of give us that free time to do the tasks we want to focus on."
  },
  {
    "i": 387,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Is that really the mission? Oh yeah. oh man, like the AI could take our lives and it could take our jobs and it could take everything from us or it could just do the things we don't want to do."
  },
  {
    "i": 388,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "So we can spend that time doing what we do want to do. Like you should have all the time in the world to do what you love and you should never have to work."
  },
  {
    "i": 389,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You should never have to do things you, you know, that like an AI, if an AI can do it and it's not something you're passionate about, then let the AI do it. And I really want to see that world."
  },
  {
    "i": 390,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I want to see a world where people have their time back to spend more time with their family and to invest in, you know, God, all the things that really matter. Like there are a lot of things that matter and like, like spirituality and religion and God."
  },
  {
    "i": 391,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "why are we here and what really matters and what are we doing here? And I think that we don't have a, I don't have a lot of time to think about those things because I spend so much time working and just staying on top of my like messages and email and stuff."
  },
  {
    "i": 392,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I would love that. And I want everyone else to have that too. so we're working backwards from like, what, what is the thing that can help everyone? and then like, how do we sustain that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 393,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "You know? And I thought it was meme coins, but I think, I think it's just like boring ass ass subscriptions probably, you know? I get you. And you know what?"
  },
  {
    "i": 394,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You also put out this tweet that I want to talk about this, which I think is in line with what you're saying here specifically this part it's to make the internet more human and not less. I'm going to read out the entire tweet because I think there's a, a lot here to digest."
  },
  {
    "i": 395,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you said it makes me a bit sad that code I wrote has contributed so much to the spam and, and shitification of the site. It wouldn't, it would have been someone else."
  },
  {
    "i": 396,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Many other people certainly reverse engineered the GraphQL APIs before and after us, but obviously, obviously I enabled it."
  },
  {
    "i": 397,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "if I have another viral moment, I hope the technology gets used in a way that is kind of the opposite of that to make the internet more human and not less. Maybe just a generally thinking through your thoughts on this."
  },
  {
    "i": 398,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm so fucking tired of all the bots commenting on everything. I post it's like 90% AI bots and I don't even understand why they're doing it. Like I'm just muting all of them and they all have, but like the problem is they all have blue checks."
  },
  {
    "i": 399,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "They're all paying Twitter money to be there."
  },
  {
    "i": 400,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and also I get creator fees from those bots when they comment, like I actually could probably move to a Malaysia and just shit post all day for a living because of all the bot comments, like driving my creator rewards up."
  },
  {
    "i": 401,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "But I hate it. I hate life. I don't want to live in a world. I don't want to live in a world where like, I have to go check every profile for every comment to be like, is this a real person?"
  },
  {
    "i": 402,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and I hate that so much of it is just like slop. I hate slop. I don't, I don't want to be part of slop. you know, like what world are we building? and there are a lot of people who are like using AI to fill the internet with AI content to make money."
  },
  {
    "i": 403,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I just don't want any part of that. I want the AI to make my world better and to, you know, to contribute. there was this project that had like shown how to do some of the GraphQL QL API stuff. We built a plugin for that, forked it, made up, added a whole bunch of stuff."
  },
  {
    "i": 404,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I had the ability to like put agents in Twitter spaces. And I thought we were going to build like Disney. I thought we were going to build storytelling and agents that could like build these interesting, intricate narratives online."
  },
  {
    "i": 405,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and I thought like this could be cool. And what we saw was like, basically people were just using it for the worst things. and I just don't want to be part of that anymore. I feel bad for being part of that. I actually got banned from X for a while."
  },
  {
    "i": 406,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I managed, we got into a lawsuit with them and I ended up just emailing them. I feel like this is a coordination failure and a great waste of all of our time. And I ended up getting back on a call with them and working it out"
  },
  {
    "i": 407,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and getting back onto X. And I still consider like maybe hitting up those guys, especially on the key is gone and be like, I can help that bot problem. I know how to, I know, I know how they work and I know how to fix it."
  },
  {
    "i": 408,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "but I also really want to do what I'm doing. you know, I think that they're incentivized not to fix it. I guess is what I'm saying. so I don't know. you know, I just want the technology that I make to make the world better."
  },
  {
    "i": 409,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I don't, I don't want to make the world worse."
  },
  {
    "i": 410,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And I definitely did not expect that, but it definitely happened, you know, to wrap this up, disrupt, excuse me, wrap this conversation up. Shaw. I want to just ask you, you know, do you hate crypto and what could bring you back? I love crypto."
  },
  {
    "i": 411,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I love the technology. I've met some of the coolest people. like Flashbots is one of the coolest groups. I think that everything they do is super interesting and they've been really supportive of us."
  },
  {
    "i": 412,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Meme and Jupiter. I think that they're doing a lot good and I think he's been really supportive and great ideas. Like there, there are some champions of this thing, Vitalik and everything he's doing."
  },
  {
    "i": 413,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "we're working on a lot of like, how do we give people private compute and private ownership of this stuff? That's, that's like beyond Ethereum, but using zero knowledge proofs, it's like super interesting."
  },
  {
    "i": 414,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm going to talk to the Meta people after this. I think, I think what they're doing is interesting and, and I'm really considering like, you know, a Meta Dow launch. I wish we had met."
  },
  {
    "i": 415,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I wrote this earlier. Meta Dow is what I thought. Dow is not fun. What's going to be, you know, so glad you brought this up."
  },
  {
    "i": 416,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Meta Dow is a sponsor of MCG, ironically, and we've been following them for a while now. We've been following them for the last year and a half, and they have been chewing glass, doing the legwork to get this like ownership model really locked in."
  },
  {
    "i": 417,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so I love that you actually bring it up, talk me through. So you think Meta Dow is what Dow dot fund could and should have been."
  },
  {
    "i": 418,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I thought it would be like a Dow. I thought it'd be people voting. I thought it would be, the community and the founders working together to build something that they own together. I feel like that sounds great. Like I love crypto as a coordination mechanism."
  },
  {
    "i": 419,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I love internet marketing. I love, I see crypto as just the roads and the streets of the internet. Like it's just, it's just the protocols of the internet. Now it's not, it doesn't have to be a culture anymore. Even it's just like the technology that we use to drive our world."
  },
  {
    "i": 420,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like a lot of things are crypto now, like Western Union is crypto. You know, a lot of banks are putting money in and storing it in stablecoins and stuff. it's really normal."
  },
  {
    "i": 421,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's the institution has like adopted it. If anything, it's still like just, you know, retail. It's not really a lot of normal people, who are not sure exactly how it fits into their lives or, or frankly, they've been scammed and they've been turned off to it."
  },
  {
    "i": 422,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "and you know, a lot of like, if you are not into crypto, you probably will get scammed and think that crypto is a scam. You know, like you bought the wrong coin, you bought the wrong version of the coin, same name, but it's the wrong coin, you know, whatever."
  },
  {
    "i": 423,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "There's a million versions of that. but as like, I love crypto, I'm a programmer, I'm an engineer. I think the math behind it is so interesting."
  },
  {
    "i": 424,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm really interested in formal verification and like where we've been doing like a big formal verification of zero knowledge proofs, and snarks and starks, God, there's so many super smart people in this space."
  },
  {
    "i": 425,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "but I think that it's been overrun by the casino and people like this beautiful technologies and new ways to do finance that just get totally crushed by the mob. and that part sucks. And I think that if we want to bring it back,"
  },
  {
    "i": 426,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "you know, like maybe part of it is like, like it's still happening. There's still value and there's still people investing in things that are obviously going to work and do, you know, or have great mechanisms or have a great founding team. I think it's just that like we've got to, the casino is not everything."
  },
  {
    "i": 427,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It makes me sad that Coinbase is just a bunch of notifications for prediction markets and gambling now. Like that was just my bank before, you know, it should just be my bank, it is what it is."
  },
  {
    "i": 428,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I'm really, we're working on another thing called, get Dot army is what it's called. We might change the name, but I kind of like it. Get that army. I think this could be a really interesting coordination mechanism where we can like fund."
  },
  {
    "i": 429,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "If you want to contribute to open source, you can get paid in USDC to like download the SDK into your cloud code or your codex and it will just start contributing to Eliza."
  },
  {
    "i": 430,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like you can be a contributor to Eliza. So we're kind of like a virtualized with no programming background and we set up everything. So it kind of gives us what we need and is in our structure."
  },
  {
    "i": 431,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And we're also working on, the zero knowledge proof, which is a million dollar prize, called it, the proof prize. And this is from the Ethereum Foundation to prove this really hard mathematical fact."
  },
  {
    "i": 432,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And if we can prove this math, then we all get a million bucks and we can split it. And I think crypto is like the, you know, like that's so sick that you don't even have to know any math and you're, you could be like mining part of a million dollars."
  },
  {
    "i": 433,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Like this is the future of mining. This is, you know, proof of useful work is such an interesting mechanism. am I a masochist? Should I like do a metadata thing? are they going to, are they going to kill me on the timeline if we do this?"
  },
  {
    "i": 434,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "probably, I would only do it because I thought it was like, you know, I don't know. Cause I do love this shit. I really think it's so interesting."
  },
  {
    "i": 435,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I wish the culture was more forgiving of, you know, the fact that like it's a zero sum game sometimes and, you know, things go to zero."
  },
  {
    "i": 436,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I do also think that there are a lot of positive, some NFTs, and there's a lot of ways that we could allow like new founding mechanisms, like MetaMask school."
  },
  {
    "i": 437,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Cause it's, you own a piece of the IP, Like that's the IP treasury flows all of the above."
  },
  {
    "i": 438,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I think that's really cool."
  },
  {
    "i": 439,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "It's a good balance of like, and also they, they, you know, the team can say, Hey, we need this much per month. And no matter what happens to the token, we have enough to build. Like that's very crucial because a lot of teams just run out of finances"
  },
  {
    "i": 440,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "because the token crashes. and they don't want to sell. You don't want to sell until the last minute. And then you've like, you know, we, we could have had a lot more money and I just kept saying, we can't sell,"
  },
  {
    "i": 441,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And you know, there's believe me, the foundation people are like, we told you so like now we're fucked, you know? and that was maybe a really big mistake on my part, but I just really didn't want to sell. you know, I hope that I think it's in the process of like, it's the dark before the dawn."
  },
  {
    "i": 442,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "And I think there are, also Hyperliquid doing some cool stuff with, just, it's just more like, Hey, you can do your safe through crypto. Not, it's not like parabolic. I think that's cool."
  },
  {
    "i": 443,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I think there's a lot of Shapiro and the whole Hyperliquid team. They rock. I believe they actually work with metadata."
  },
  {
    "i": 444,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "If I'm not mistaken as well, they work with a lot of these really cool, innovative, like experiments, I guess like Series rounds that, Pump.fun doing. so all cool stuff."
  },
  {
    "i": 445,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "Maybe I have about a week to say like, do we, do we call in the Safe or do we do metadata or Meme X? I think those are our three options. And I think they're all, they're all very interesting for various, various reasons."
  },
  {
    "i": 446,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "obviously, you know, where our vote goes for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to discuss this further and put you in contact with, you know, maybe Gabriel Shapiro can help you make that decision."
  },
  {
    "i": 447,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Sean, we, we appreciate you coming on. This has been a fantastic conversation. Like I told you before the start, just everything about this story is freaking insane."
  },
  {
    "i": 448,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I mean, we're talking about a token that ran up to two and a half billion dollars in three months. you clowned the Binance class action lawsuit. They took, they took you guys for a lot of it."
  },
  {
    "i": 449,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You hate them. Now you're going to fight SEC next. Next thing we know, next thing we're doing is, you know, you're raising a $20 million valuation for your next project, which is like a OpenClaw inspired situation, which I think sounds really, really cool."
  },
  {
    "i": 450,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so we kind of talked through the whole cycle here and it's, it's been a fascinating conversation."
  },
  {
    "i": 451,
    "speaker": "Shaw",
    "text": "I think there's a lot of lessons and, you know, people can take what they want from this conversation."
  },
  {
    "i": 452,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Thanks for having me. This is like weirdly fun. Good. I'm good. I'm glad I was weirdly fun rather than like, I don't know. It's a good chance to vent."
  },
  {
    "i": 453,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you know, they say it's a good, good thing. This is like a therapy, For a therapy. And I am charging hourly by the way. So we'll have to settle up after this. Of course. I appreciate you, Talk soon. Absolutely. Take care."
  },
  {
    "i": 454,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Peace."
  }
]