[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they were trading like more than 5% of the US equities volume which is a crazy amount um for um and it's like a very you know you can't screw up it's it's very meritocratic and like you if you don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have good people writing good code with good strategies uh you you lose all your money very quickly the primary thing you need to do first is like build the thing it's not like raise a bunch of money and"
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "get people to talk about so that's that's what we did like we are small and we're we have very limited time and resources and it's just like a it's kind of a luxury like with like trading going"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "well during a bull market we're not in urgent need of raising money and so we focus our time on other stuff I'm pretty confident that 3 years from now most of the order book volume will be on"
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "decentralized venues maybe even like 90% of it I we're doing a big part in making this shift I think central changes will probably see the value if they haven't already and move to some hybrid solution"
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is my guess um the the problem is they have a big business to protect so they're not really incentivized to take risks that are good but risky if you gave bance the option to like have like"
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "a 20% chance of being the biggest Dex but that doesn't go well like they lose their binance users and the Dex doesn't go well then they lose like their whole business with let's say like 20% chance"
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't think they I don't think anyone at finance will make that business decision but if you don't move if you don't change you die most of the time frequency trading how is it going Jeff"
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "how how are you doing well how are you um pretty good I mean I'm very happy to have you on board for this interview um I think you are the second decentralized exchange I have like on on this podcast"
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "on this video interview um so I think we might have like a lot of topics to to chat um I think your friends told me that you have like a very interesting background also so that might be also"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "some topics to to chat about and maybe some topics that we um have I would say less occasion less opportunity to to mention most of the time so just to start this interview who are you Jeff"
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "because like I think more more people uh get some interest about uh EO liquids um a lot of people at least heard about it I think recently uh or at least more and more people um but maybe doesn't knows"
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like who is behind like E Liquid so who are you sure I can give a quick intro uh I'm Jeff uh I graduated in 2017 from Harvard studied math and computer science and worked at Hudson River"
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Trading right out of college um they're one of the big us Equity market makers pretty low profile um I worked on the US equities liquidity removal team uh kind of their bread and butter it was a super"
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "good experience but it was a relatively short stint because in 2018 I read the ethereum yellow paper and was very excited to build defi um it was very clear this was like a great idea a"
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "revolutionary idea move out to San Francisco to build something um raiseed funding but the the timing wasn't too good in terms of users in the bare market and so kind of shuted those doors"
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and by 2020 I decided to combine crypto and trading was the two things I had spent a lot of time thinking about and do proprietary trading on my own like Market making crypto um yeah so grew"
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that out scale that the timing is very good this time and kind of scaled it with the bull market uh so from 2020 to 2022 we were a very large footprint on most of the major centralized exchanges"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "very low profile like no public facing um components of the company at all um yeah and then around when FTX crashed last I guess now two years ago uh we suddenly saw the opportunity we were"
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "already trading on defi a quantitative trading um on different protocols and we saw the we we saw the need which was uh a good platform that Traders can trust uh but that actually where users retain"
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "control of their funds and there's self- custody and full transparency all these values of crypto finally felt emotionally important to the users and so the this dream from 2018 that uh I"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "set out to build finally it was it was clear that it was the right time to build it and um fast forward to now maybe a little bit more than a year later and Hyperliquid is our our sole"
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Focus uh and over the past few months I think it's it's seen quite a lot of exponential growth so uh just yesterday there was um around a billion dollars in in cumulative uh in Daily volume and"
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's been averaging maybe half of that uh in very much on metrics like uh organic users um open interest uh all these all these measures of sort of real adoption I think Hyperliquid has"
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "basically risen to the top of dex's and that's been really cool to see and it it's really inspiring to us to to keep building well like how was it to work in the traditional markets tra traditional"
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "finance and what were you studying before like arriving in these kind of companies like uh Market making or at least like involved in the traditional Finance like yeah um so I wouldn't say"
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Market making is too similar to traditional traditional Finance it to me it's more similar to doing some research at the intersection of math statistics and computer science um it's it's kind"
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of hard to explain like people often think you you need to study finance and understand economics or you need to really understand math and theoretical stuff I think it's neither neither one"
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is true uh it's very much uh I think the most important skills are um being very good at programming um but also being being a lot of common sense uh I'm I don't think it was my initial strength I"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "was always more of a math person um in in physics but I think in building Hyperliquid building up um a trading operation from scratch and then building out Hyperliquid I think at this I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "engineering is is like my personal biggest strength and and what I enjoy doing the most um but it all kind of ties together and I think uh it's a very unique intersection of skills which is"
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "why I think it's it's very hard to to find people who are good at uh automated trading um and it's a very secretive group like industry as a whole because um there's no moat other than"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "your technical Alpha so obviously people do go to gr Lanes to protect that and it makes a lot of sense um so the end result is there like a very small set of people in the world who like actually um"
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know how to provide liquidity and can do it well um but yeah I think it's for the right people it's it's a super cool job like I think it was like the best thing out of college to work in it's it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really fast-paced you have uh incredible leverage as an individual like our team was I think like six people at that point and uh this is public information there was been an article about this uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "but uh they were trading like more than 5% of the US equities volume which is a crazy amount um for um and and it's like a very you know you can't screw up it's it's very meritocratic and like you if you don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have good people writing good code with good strategies uh you you lose all your money very quick um so I think it's a really it's a really cool cool industry and and HRT is like probably like the"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "one of the best places you can work uh because of their their their culture around like making it more research techy not not Finance no suits none of that stuff I I think it was uh I I only"
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "have good things to say about the experience did you had like more constraints compared to what like compared to the constraints you have now like in crypto like like because of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "regulation did you have like more limits to like um operates in the on the markets or was it like more on the like legal departments and you you you can do whatever you want like on the market"
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "making and M mathematical side of like the models and everything um it's very different from cryp it's almost as different as it can possibly be uh so um like my job was very abstracted away"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "from Trading like I never really thought about trading that much it was very much more the the intuition was was grounded in the markets but the day today was much more Technical and mathematical I"
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think they was like they think very deeply and they've been they at HRT at least they've been around for decades so they have a there's a lot of um institutional knowledge there uh and so"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you're kind of looking to improve upon the work of just like hundreds of people over Decades of of heart thinking and so like at that point you're not really thinking like oh you know what does it"
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "mean to place a buy order like you're not really touching that stuff it's much more it's it's kind of cool it's like you're you're you're working on this very hard and clean problem but um in"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "crypto right so I guess to answer your question there in some sense there are limits in that like you're not touching the raw trading um and it's very good for people who are good at math and"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "computer science to just go in and and solve these hard problems um I think when when trading crypto you basically have like no time to think about any of that stuff there're just so many"
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "especially when you're building it out from scratch there's so much stuff you need to get right in terms of just like building infrastructure and um I had no experience doing that so it"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really was like just thinking about it and playing around and like I wrote my first script in Python and then it was it was okay but then it like wasn't fast enough so I had to like learn rust to"
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like code it up from scratch and like redo it uh and so there's a lot of learning there but it's very much not a theoretical problem it's like how do I get data quickly how do I how do I"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "process it all without being behind how do I like place my orders in a way that they get executed well they're just like there there's like so much work there um so pretty different and I guess crypto"
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "there are fewer limitations in the sense that like the API is very open to the public like anyone can connect and start trading and so it's really good for newcomers whereas for something like us"
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "equities or Futures you need to have you probably need like $10 million to just like start of like initial Capital invesment get all the connectivity and all that stuff so like everyone cannot"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "work like with this with those markets in this industry basically there are like kind of limits and barriers on and and like yeah yeah so crypto is cool in that sense like that that I think like"
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's just like one of the various reasons that crypto I think is the future uh it's more open and hope it stays that way and so when you decided to move away from like the traditional"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "finance and markets and idea to work like in the crypto industry um like was it like an Easy Choice uh and also like did you get like some of the people working in your previous company or like"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "at least in traditional Finance like into crypto uh no it's very hard to recruit people um because I think when you tell someone who's working at a comfortable job on on Wall Street very"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "well P very well paid and everything I guess yeah very stable very comfortable like you have all the perks of a good tech company and you say hey like can you drop everything and and trust me"
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "yeah it's it's pretty hard so um yeah I've very much been like I like I started building the initial like initially want to build a prediction market and then kind of P it to like offer order book stuff in 2018 all this"
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "was like I kind of left and just spent five months like building it on my own and then um ended up working with a friend for a bit uh but then when going back to training it was like back to"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "myself it's like very much uh I I find it hard to hard to like really explore if you hire like a big team and even if you can convince them it's like you're kind of you kind of like are setting"
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "yourself up to to do something big whereas initially I think it's really important to just like just have free reign be on your own like no pressure try new things yeah and try new things"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like learn and I think it's a really magical time I think it's for myself it was it was nice to do that personally like like in at the beginning I mean now we have a big team or big is like like"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "eight people um and so um like before starting this interview I mentioned that you were like U very focused I would say on like high frequency trading in the past um maybe could you explain like what is high"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "frequency trading um how does it works in traditional Finance uh does it exist like in in crypto uh have you been like doing high frequency trading in crypto like all these things because I believe"
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "there is a lot of like misconceptions around high frequency trading and also like some Mysteries you know um people don't know this part of trading um they have no experience in it uh they know"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "very um they don't know people working on this um so maybe maybe that would be great to have your insights and maybe understand how it works uh sure so the idea is simple I mean you have a you"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have an order book so all almost all of trafi is is trading through order books um there's some auctions as well um but but by and larg is order book and it's the it's the sort of tried and true"
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "method of matching buyer buyers and sellers in a way that's good for everyone uh and you can see crypto sort of rediscovering this like H was an onchain order book took many years for"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "crypto people to be like oh yeah maybe maybe trafi doesn't has some good ideas after all after it for you know hundreds of years but but anyway so there's there's an order book um that just means"
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're like buyers who place orders to buy and sellers to place orders to sell and then whenever two of those intersect the they transact uh it's a very simple idea it's it's very elegant in that it"
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like it lets people fully it it offloads all of the pricing to the market participants and so high frequency Traders are probably the the most active Market participants uh they don't they"
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "don't buy and sell based on external information usually uh in terms of like fundamentals or uh just like their own beliefs they're it's a very automated process you look at you probably look at"
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the buy and sell orders on your exchange you look at buy and sell orders on other exchanges you look at recent trades all these are very like wellow signals yeah like order flow and people do this"
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "manually as well like if you're scalping or something and and I think crypto is probably one of the few markets you can do it profitably manually um but yeah but hybri Traders like basically take"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "all this information feed it to some algorithms and you can do very simple things and they work well you could also do very complicated things and they often also work well like you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "machine learning uh that kind of stuff I would say if you're just starting out to like not do machine learning it's very very hard to get complicated things to work um in in high frequency trading"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "because the data is so noisy um but anyway regardless you have some you have some like data you look at it you think you have a good idea you you design some strategy around it which is like okay"
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "when my data tells me to place orders I just place these orders um then then you you might you might simulate it like with with the historical data um to see if it would have worked well it's kind"
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of hard to do this well but you can get some sense and uh and then then ultimately you just like turn it on and it's this it's this loop from ingesting data that different sources are pushing"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and you like send orders and then you get fills and you look at your fills and I guess you look at your account and you see if you're making money and you adjust according is it directional like"
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "what like what makes side frequency trading different from Market making or is it like a technique used by market makers like maybe explains the differences in in like like yeah how"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's intersect between market makers and and this kind of trading technique uh yeah it's a bit of a it's a bit of a semantic difference there in my mind I use Market making and high frequency"
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trading interchangeably philosophically I don't think of them as very different some people mean say Market making to mean placing resting orders whereas high frequency trating might include that but"
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also include placing taking orders I think it's kind of a it's it's basically how you want to define the terms um some people think of Market making also it just has more connotations like some"
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people think of Market making as these like token market makers who will get a loan for a deal and then basically provide the spot liquidity uh after listing on an exchange so I think Market"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "making just it depends who you ask what it means and high frequen trading I think everyone kind of knows what it means it just means you trade in an automated way and you trade a lot um so"
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "yeah I think that is the that's the difference okay and so um we we haven't talked about like H liquid but just before doing it um so basically you have like you're working on H liquid but you"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also work on chameleon trading or is it the same like what are your main activities now Hyperliquid um so initially it was incubated by chameleon trading which is uh it's a fully private"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "F I guess shop uh it doesn't really have any structure it has no shareholders no investors no public fa it's just like like most Market making operations it's just like some Capital that that we're"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trading and making money with um and the bull market was was very good for trading and not too much good like the problem with high freeny trading is like you make money but you don't actually"
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have a long-term view so you just end up with some cash and like you don't really know what to do with it and so Hyperliquid was initially one of the things we like maybe we can incubate this"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "longer term view um trading is cool you make short-term p&l um but at the end of the day you're you're kind of just making some money and uh there to me it felt like there was not as much marginal"
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "impact and wanted to zoom out and do something that was actually valuable to to the crypto space uh and and to humanity as a whole in terms of like pushing the frontiers of of something"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and uh that's where Hyperliquid started it was the motivation is not purely Financial it is uh it is really like we see this need and people people if this product existed this this decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "network it would make people's lives a lot better if not just a little better um and yeah so uh nowadays though it is it is the sole Focus um and it is not chele and trading it is uh it is an"
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "independent foundation and it is not owned by people uh it is its beneficiaries are like it's like a foundation kind of like like like crypto should be um and we are some devs providing services and we plan to fully"
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "decentralize it uh that is like the core of how we're writing it which is why it is a much more ambitious approach than these other projects um there's no option component so like when the code"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is released it will be fully um validated and and and the the state machine will advance in a fully decentralized way and like order books trades liquidations everything is like part of this globally shared consistent"
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "State um and yeah so for now we we are like to me it feels a lot like what what matalic was doing early on with ethereum which is like we need we need some we need some people with some competence to"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "get it to a state where everyone else can just run it and own it as a community and so you mentioned that you um really wanted to launch your own decks in your way um just after like FTX"
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "collapsed um I guess like before doing it maybe you tried like some of the solutions available in the market I guess they were not good enough for you um because you you started the and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you started E Liquid in worked on eer liquid um what makes eer liquid different from the other platforms available like decentralized trading Solutions available because so far we have like"
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "multiple actors uh and and participants in terms of like trading decentralized trading D derivatives Solutions available uh which I personally use um I was mentioning dyx GMX AO and other ones"
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "so what makes you different like is it like the vision and approach you have is it like the features um is it like the liquidity like what are the main components that makes uh Eid difference"
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and that makes in your opinion like um sense for the future yeah uh it's a good question it's a very there's a very long answer I I strongly believe that when when you're building something like an"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "exchange you can't have one killer feature if you're like all right my like my UI is super good but I don't have liquidity like you know I'm just I'm focusing on UI like like No One's Gonna"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "use it like you have to get everything right that's why big players like Finance by which is hard it's like you have there are like they're legit like 10 big categories probably and like you"
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "need to excel at all of them and if your exchange is only as good as the worst component um and then when you're building a decentralized exchange there are like maybe 10 more check boxes youit"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "check in terms of the typ So my answer is that like we do we strive to do and I think we have like checked most of those boxes at this point um so I guess like as a quick summary um like the the the"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the high level pitch is like it should be binance like it should it should not feel different from binance but it should be fully decentralized uh and anyone can say that but to do that it"
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you have to do all these things and so um maybe go like back in time order so uh like most recently like we made the onboarding just as good as a centralized exchange uh so you you enter you go to"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you go to Hyperliquid you you enter email you don't need to create a wallet or anything um the email creates this secured private key uh we use we use privy for this uh they do a really good"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "job in terms of like charting the key and making it actually centralized but the point is for the user is like you have an email and the email sends you a code and then you're good to go it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like a log to a centralized exchange um it shows you it shows you an address it's like hey send some funds here so you do you send it on arbitrum it's like you know 5 seconds and you get the funds"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and you're ready to trade you want to withdraw it's like okay you ENT an address like where do you want your funds where's your Fiat offramp or or where's your wallet whatever like your"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Hardware wallet like you enter the address and then you click and then it's like okay small fee and then then you're good to go you never needed to you never need to like create a wallet you never"
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "needed to enter these 24 words that worried about losing you never need to like do this stuff it's like it's easier than a centralized exchange um so that's like one thing we did recently um in"
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "terms of like I going back more the uh a big thing about Hyperliquid is just like having this thing that's like it's it's as good as binance but it's decentralized and so part of that is you"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "can't have an internal desk uh you can't have like the Alam of FTX playing around with customer funds um but you need the good liquidity you need the professional liquidity you can't you can't you also can't have"
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "something like Unis swap where you put the funds in it's purely passive and it gets picked off by smart people and then the LPS lose their money um so LP is really like a response to that it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Community owned uh the we built the uh Vault abstraction fully on the Hyperliquid L1 um and the but algorithm is smart and uh it's really a testament to how much we've thought about hyper"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "frequency trading fulltime I probably I probably commity thought about it for like tens of thousands of hours and there are a lot of small details get right there but but City like hrp has"
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "made um you know more than $2 million at this point it's traded billions of dollars uh like 100% off time with the platform providing deep liquidity and tight liquidity for everything"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "immediately upon listing uh and that's like a very unique aspect that only Hyperliquid does um and you go back further it's like yeah you gotta we have to build build this UI right we have to"
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like carefully study you know buybit Finance whatever and like try to put all the good features together which I don't think any Dex has done like you mentioned DX uh uh they probably push"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the boundary on this but uh I don't think any Dex has really reached the like sex level of uh smoothness and we're that that's a good big focus of us uh so yeah I could go on and on but"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "there're all these boxes to check uh we need to build this L1 itself that is like super performant and can House the full exchange uh so we're really doing I think we're probably doing like five"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "projects worth of uh projects uh with a smaller with a very small team so it really is like uh a very ambitious uh undertaking but it's it's been really on the flip side it's been really fun uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "inspiring to see people use it could you maybe mention like a bit like what were your thoughts before creating E Liquid technically especially you mentioned that like E Liquid is decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "using arbitrum um why choosing like arbitrum like how how does it interacts together um why did you not choose I don't know like other layer toos or like I don't know salana or other things like"
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "how how is it built technically and um why did you made those decisions technically it's a good question it's a common misconception that hywood is an arbitrum app uh that it's my fault"
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "because like basically whenever you interact with it it's it's linked to robit Trum So I wasn't sure about it so the funds Bridge from arbitrum the problem with building an L1 building an"
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "L1 is great for and I think I strongly believe is the only way to build a good per Stacks uh I can go more into that later but one of the big problems with an L1 is that you don't have native"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "assets of value on the L1 until the L1 gets big so there's a chicken and egg problem there when you're big enough it's fine salana has native usdc now they've solidified themselves and it's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "bit of a moat there but with Hyperliquid to get off the ground a new L1 usually Bridges from another chain and uh we strongly feel like the the bridging is super important but it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also not it's not that important to get every single chain bridging to your chain a lot of projects get stuck with that and don't make progress further our thought is okay arbitrum has a lot of"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "liquidity GMX did a super good job attracting retail and there was like billions of dollars just sitting on arbitrum already so we just start with those users and and then the users will"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "come and now with the centr exchange flow like you can just deposit you can withdraw from arbitrum from any major centralized exchange and so we were clearly proven right there and people"
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people want to use Hyperliquid they figure out how to get to arbit room and so that's why that's why it's just arbitr and it feels like an arbitrum dap it it's fine um the bulk of the action"
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "on Hyperliquid happens on the Hyperliquid L1 and you just don't realize it because you don't need a separate wallet you don't need to do this weird signing stuff uh you you sign once it's like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "delegated signature and then that there's a temporary address that then lives in memory and trades on your behalf but doesn't have permission to withdraw and we think this is like the"
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "right compromise for users and the net effect is users don't even realize they're trading on the hyper Lego L1 they don't need to confirm every order they don't need to they don't need like"
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "see the Hyperliquid L1 anywhere it's for them it's just a smooth exchange I didn't notice it so but but behind the scenes there these validators they're Val they're validating the the the the Hyperliquid"
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "L1 which runs the whole exchange the order book every time you place an order it matches against someone every time hopefully you don't get liquidated but let's say you do uh all of this stuff"
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these are transactions happening on the Hyperliquid L1 which does currently does 20,000 transactions per second uh and you can go to the Explorer on Hyperliquid and see the blocks and see the"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "transactions within the blocks it's uh it's not the most beautiful Explorer yet we'll hopefully have someone build a beautiful one but the the core data is there you can see that it is it is"
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "onchain it is there's no centralized component of the system and I think when people realize this after using Hyperliquid for many months it's usually an aha moment it's it's like wow like I'm"
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "not actually trusting my funds with anyone the well you're you're trusting with the validators I guess but that's the same with with any bridged L1 uh and it is you you can see you can see how"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this thing scales to become this community-owned decentralized exchange that has all of the volume where no one needs to trust anyone else anymore to take on positions to hold their funds or"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "anything and so like your L1 is dedicated to e liquid or do you plan to have like I don't know like over trading venues and platforms like using it like what's your plans like uh when it comes"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "to that because um creating your own L1 is like it feels complex and hard to do and also had like some risks I believe uh in terms of like the uptime the security of the assets and everything um"
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so yeah how do you see the L1 like future of uh on your end it's a good question I I think right now the the focus is really like you said it's a dedicated L1 it the I think another big"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "issue with with crypto with the space as a whole is that are too focused on building infrastructure and at the end of the day you can have a really cool L but if no one wants to build on it"
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "what's the point and Hyperliquid is the only team that I know of that is jointly optimizing the the the full stack so I say jointly optimizing I mean like I guess it's kind of like a math term but"
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's like if you have an optimization problem and you have a lot of variables you could just pick one and like start to tweak it and optimize whatever but uh you really need like to really find the"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "global maximum you need to you need to be tweaking every variable at once to arrive at this like the peak of some Hill that like you can't find by just walking in a straight line and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that's really like what I think we're doing in terms of the the axes here are like infrastructure user experience liquidity provision uh the L1 it's like it is it is everything uh and it is"
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "essential to building a good perex so we don't do it because it's fun and we think it's a cool problem we do it because it is the only way to build a perpose seex that is decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "performant and user friendly uh so we are we are innovating on the on the L1 continually it's a bit of a slower process because like you said it's a very hard problem and we don't have"
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "capacity to fully focus on it like we're a small team and we need to build all these other things as well but we are also doing research on the L1 side and so right now we've like really pushed"
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "tenderman to its maximum um and it can do around 20,000 transactions per second but uh long term we will not be using or Hyperliquid will will not be using tender mins and we have we are writing"
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the uh consensus part from scratch as well and expect to see at least a 10x performance Improvement uh and to started is just actually necessary because binance processes probably million orders a second and if you're at"
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "20,000 you can't compete but if you're at 200,000 and then you're at 2 million maybe maybe you can so no timeline on that exactly but it will it will get it will happen um and at that point you"
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "make a good point that we've done all this work building this L1 and if it really can do more than run a Pur decks then then why not um I don't think I don't think the hard part is getting"
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "other things to come on and be composable and integrate with your order book I think the hard part is getting the the per decks to be the thing that everyone uses um so we're not in a rush"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to to get like more defi on the hyper L1 crypto per crypto perss are such a dominant share of what people actually care about and we are just focused on that for the immediate thing so what's"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "your views on for example what DC has been doing like recently um so basically thex mooved from like the V3 uh which was based on on stock um solution uh in in basically ethereum at the very"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "beginning and now moving like to the Dy exchain which is built using like the cosmos SDK um was it like a solution for you um and how did you thought uh about like like this option which is basically"
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "using like the cosmos SDK and doing like the same thing as like dydx uh we looked into that the our initial plan was pretty similar to something like vdx V3 or maybe what some projects like vertex"
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "are doing it's a tried andrue model but uh we we actually built this out entirely uh on the arbit from testet and uh actually ran a trading competition on on testnet and just see if if it was"
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "usable and it was usable but the there are two problems uh it's the the the big one I think is that this is not actually a way to fully decentralize you'll always have this Central centralizing"
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "component of operating the order book um certainly with the V3 model of dydx uh and and another component is like you don't actually get performance you need either because all trades all matches"
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actually happen have to happen on the L2 and l2s are cheap but they're not that cheap and uh they're they're pretty fast but they're not that fast and you see arbitrum having issues sometimes as well"
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "when there's like crazy Demand with with the inscriptions lately uh and if you are using if you're using a shared resource like you are at the end of the day you are sort of subject to the whims"
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of the other people using that shared resource and it could be cheap it could be 100x better it could be a thousand X better than ethereum like gas prices but it will never be it will never be the"
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "dedicated chain you need where like when when people want to trade most is when things are moving and when there's a lot of demand for the chain so when if gas is if gas then spikes 10x at that point"
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you it's really not a good a good experience so those two things combined we we sort of thought long and hard and decided yeah we just have to to build the L1 ourselves um and I think DX model"
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "V4 the V4 model for DX is is cool because it does it does satisfy the the decentralization requirements but the I guess it the jury's kind of out on whether whether it will scale to to like"
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "full decentralization of the nodes I think right now the the holders are still somewhat concentrated and they're probably incentivized to stake behind the the nodes operating honest first and"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "first out order books but as the supply decentralizes there's with the order books being offchain there's not that much in place to prevent uh egregious meev in terms of not ordering"
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "transactions correctly and maybe even like picking off orders before the person gets to cancel them um and I think there's some plans around social slashing video adx I'm not I'm not an"
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "expert on this stuff yeah at least I personally am the opinion of the opinion like with consensus stuff if if it hasn't been proven to work you probably shouldn't assume it's just going to work"
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and that's why we took the alternative approach of like it's like a technically harder problem to build an L1 but you can see with ethereum it like the problem of me is the scope is sort of at"
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this point well studied and it's it it decreases with the block times it has all these nice properties you can have me auctions to really socialize the the me gains to the holders there's like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "lot of research there and like all of that just applies to any custom L1 like proof of stake one block finality custom l1's so we want we we believe long term that it is actually a safer and more"
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "decentralized bet to build this way so lately we've seen like more and more interest around like liquid um what did it changed on your end to have like more interest more trading volume more users"
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "more more everything basically so what changed like on the operational side uh maybe on your vision side of the future of the E Liquid excuse me like how did things evolved like for I would say the"
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "last two months it's a good question uh we wish we knew all the answers to these questions uh my big belief has it's dangerous to be like oh we'll build something and then the users will come"
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like that's a standard Trope of what you're not supposed to do but on the other hand when you worked but when you build something that's so good no not not to toot our own horn too much but"
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "when you build something that's like just like actually a lot better than other products is in itself like a good form of Market marketing our team is good at a lot we're a very spiky team uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we're very good at building infrastructure we're good at thinking about how how a deck should work good at thinking about markets Market structure liquidity provision what Traders want"
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "but we're not good at uh generating hype on social media we're not good at branding ourselves as these like really whatever like whatever people want to hear we're not good at going to VCS with"
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "an idea and raising at like a crazy valuation and getting hyped that way these are all things I think crypto as a whole is actually very good at but we happen to be very bad at and so I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this like Spike you see of like people using it organic uh is largely just like is just like people finally realizing organically that this is like a great place to trade and it is we have there"
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is this dedicated group of people who are working to make it better and taking user feedback doing things hard the hard way that but but like in a way that scales and I think people realize this"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and start to tell each other uh and it's like I always like to say like our marketing spend for typical month is is zero dollars we don't pay anyone to sh it um we don't we don't pay market"
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "makers either we don't pay we don't have any investors um so there really is like no one incentivized to show our thing and that's why it was slow and so I think the last two months is mainly just"
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this like this like virality inflection point of enough people realize that it's like actually a pretty good product and move their trading there and they tell their friends and then it just kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "spreads yeah to be honest it blows my mind like like or is it possible to not raise funds like to start with um and then like having this organic traction um like so you never raised and you"
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "don't plan to raise or you plan to raise like what's like your views on on fundraising because I guess you've been like very solicit uh recently or at least a lot of people engage conversations with you um to to to give"
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "your fans and develop the the ER liquid um so yeah how do you see it uh how do you see it and why have you been able to not raise funds so far I think this is an interesting question because um"
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "lately like we've seen like everyone raise like ton of money and sometimes they don't even get some traction and so uh raising funds and and starting to do things and then do an air"
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "drop and and everything is kind of like the the scheme now um and so how did you went out at least on the fundraising out of this scheme yeah I think a lot of teams raise funds mainly because they"
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "need some money to do stuff and so we had the luxury uh like I said hyper is not about making money and I my conviction in it is strong enough why because like at the end of the day like"
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the goal is like the goal is that the service is used and then it makes money at the end so probably for the order of the token like a future token something like that but you you want it to be a solution"
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that is used and then like as a consequence makes money I guess no for sure yeah I think the protocol is extremely valuable and will continue to acue more value I guess what I'm saying"
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is the immediate goal is not to make money I think if you uh if you want to make money there are probably there are harder way way but there're not that many harder ways than building uh what"
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we're building uh if you want to make money just like just go trade and I think there I think there's like just like money lying on the ground like all over the place in crypto if you just if"
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "someone's like hard workking and their goal is to make money you can like very easily make money money in crypto um building a building an L1 building a per deck it's just like such a long-term"
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "project there's so much there's so much like painful like day-to-day like painful iteration on it and like a pain yeah really it's not it's not like a it's not like a fun easy way to make um"
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so I think with that mindset it's like the conviction has to be strong enough this is the thing that matters and with that conviction yeah it's like if you really think about it like what what do"
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we need to do what are the things we need to do to get it to the point where it's going to be this important protocol that like revolutionize the way that Finance happens uh the primary the"
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "primary thing you need to do first is like build the thing it's not like raise a bunch of money and get people to talk about so that's that's what we did like we are small and we're we have very"
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "limited time and resources and it's just like a it's kind of a luxury like with like trading going well during a bull market we don't we don't need to like we're not in urgent need of raising"
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "money and so we focus our time on other stuff uh I think there's nothing wrong with raising Mone because you're Tech guys also and that you can build build it like EAS yeah we're not particularly good at"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "raising money necessarily well we haven't tried so like maybe but yeah I think I got some point it does make sense I think like raising makes sense when there's like when the value add to the protocol is useful and"
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for most protocols raising really makes a lot of sense because you need money to to like starve um but if you don't need the money then yeah it's like the question is like what value does do VCS"
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "add and I think a lot of good VCS add a lot of value that's not monetary in terms of getting traction getting the validation uh from an external Source uh I think in terms of like the token is"
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "probably very beneficial to like you like set up some expectation on what the price should be if you have a priced round I think it's all like very valuable things that you can't that like"
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really like VCS are are the best at doing so uh we're not you we're not we we're not like we never say like we're never going to raise well the thing is always like we just haven't raised that"
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "hasn't hasn't happened yet and maybe in the future maybe not um I saw on your side that you are like in the may8 uh closed off offer uh and that you're about to go like on a better phase uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "which should come soon um what would what what would be the difference between like um the current phase and the beta phase like is it like just about like a token like uh like how do"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you see a token play also a role on the platform because so far I I guess like a lot of interest like around e liquid has been about like okay it works well um trading experience is good but also we"
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "have like a points tab that gets like everyone's curiosity so what are your plans when it comes to like uh current phase next phase token utility points maybe can you tell me more yeah so there there will be a token"
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "eventually because the network is a proof of stake they're one to need some token to do the delegated staking and there needs to be token for decentralized governance as well um there may be other value value acral uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and we also don't have concrete we don't have anything concrete to say about the token because it's you know it just like doesn't exist yet um but eventually there needs to be one to decentralize"
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the network um yeah the points points are meant I I guess like the Clos Alpha phase actually ended I believe end of October that was the oh okay because was written still alive and bet is soon so"
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that's why I was probably needs yes the current phase is is termed Alpha which is distinct from closed Alpha um soed you had to use a referral code to get in and it was generally just"
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like these things are kind of arbitrary but it was like yeah you know small set of users still testing things the Clos Alphas uh for a right it was like for a smaller set of users but it sort of"
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "arbitrary when Alpha started um the the main thing of note is yeah like Alpha is was launched in in conjunction with the points system uh a lot of protocols do some reward formula for when the rewards"
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "start DX pioneered this and vertex also had a similar program recently but for Hyperliquid the thought is we we want to do it differently because we don't want incentives to be the reason that"
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people use the protocol and if you have a formula you get a bunch of you get a bunch of activity and liquidity that is pricing in this formula and it probably goes away when the formula changes but"
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the points are opaque they're kind of like friend Tech it's just like a cherry on top it's meant to reward the users who are using the platform organically but but not make it so that people"
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "might game the game the rewards just for that soulle purpose uh I think it's worked pretty well it it's the downside is it doesn't juice the metrics much it probably has some effect but a much"
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "smaller effect than if you have a formula people can calculate then when you do that you're kind of like selling your whatever you're rewarding people to the people fees and and the fees are low"
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and so the volume you you divide by the fees and you get like a crazy amount of volume the rewards you're giving uh when you when when points don't have any of this stuff people just can't run this"
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "calculation and we talked to many people who are like yeah why why don't you tell us how this works we would trade so much and we just say we don't want your volume if you only if you only want to"
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trade for the points then like go trade somewhere else because that's not the point doing this uh and so we we everything we do is very longterm has a very long-term vision in mind so doesn't"
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "doesn't help to pump something for a few months when you have some wordss and just to say the metrics are good for now like it really is like you want to get people who switch this platform because"
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "they actually want to trade and they think it's the best place to trade but I think that could be also like a point of failure a single point of failure when it comes to decentralization I I don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know what your plans on this but I guess like some people are trying to reverse uh engineer like how the points works and like perceive like what matter the most to get some points and then like"
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "even like the point system to me sometimes is a scam because I believe that like some platform uh that have like investors um kind of like communicated to the investors like the way points works or at least like uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "this is a way for their investors to get even more tokens and so that doesn't really helps like decentralization because if I know like I'm an investor I invest in your company then you tell me"
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like hey if you do some activity will get some points or like maybe you you like maybe the creators of the app like doesn't tell them like that clearly but they could understand it and then those"
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "same people with big amount of money um start to farm the point system and gets even more tokens and so this is kind of like uh like points are great but maybe not that great like what's your views on"
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "how like the ecosystem leverage um the point system so far it's a good question there are certainly trade-offs the benefit of points is is I think very strong uh I guess first of all to clarify the points will only run"
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for these this Alpha phase we call Alpha but it's basically this like public phase pre uh Network decentralization um right so it is it is like a temp it's sort of like a temporary solution uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that is meant to it's meant to be like it's a trade-off between the transparency and actually rewarding real users and what you're saying is basically yeah it's not strictly better"
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "than a transparent re system and and I totally agree with that um but I think for an average user like if you're just a normal user trading on Hyperliquid and you're you know just like going"
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "going the UI like placing your trades there like oh this is pretty good like let me Place some more trades hold my positions whatever like I'm just like using it normally uh if the points were"
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "public you would get I think 10x fewer points probably like that's my my estimate because the people who are farming these things like they're professional firms talk about easy ways to make money"
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or like things that don't value but there are firms that like go in and just like trade it up it's like if if they think a point is worth like they'll calculate exactly what it's worth and"
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they'll trade like just enough to like still make money and then that thing just like completely makes it impossible for any real user to get any reasonable amount of the token and then like or"
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like the the like f whatever whatever future thing acrs to the the points like you've seen this play out with with all the other systems and uh yeah and so like you end up with these big"
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "stakeholders who like don't even care about your prot protocol and just did it because they made some money doing it there's like that's the alternative so yeah like if you're asking like sure you"
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "sacrifice some transparency but I think like the end of the day users are not stupid like they will see they will see like the value that they got from the protocol and I think people can make"
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "their own judgment if something sketchy happened and like obviously like we we we we always maintain like we we don't have investors we don't have any anyone big who's we're incentivizing to like do"
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "something and then like give them Insider information um that's very much against like how hyper does things we don't have have anyone on the cap table uh yeah so I I think it's like probably"
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "more compelling it's like easier for someone to to buy into that um so yeah I think like yeah people always say it's a scam uh I think we just I think there's a bit of like sticking to like longterm what is good"
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for the users and what is good for the platform I think I think this will reflect itself like maybe like a year or so you come back and like revisit this and hopefully people are saying oh yeah"
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like wasn't clear at the time but that was a right choice yeah and so I wanted to talk about like the features available uh on on EO liquid um like which features do you like the most and"
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "um how did you get inspired like um by the ecosystem to create maybe those features like is there any big names in town or like interesting people or interesting protocols that got like that"
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "inspired you um to create those features are you talking about UI features for users or or or all features like what matters the most to you um I think hlp is probably the biggest feature on hyper"
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "liquid and there really wasn't maybe can you explain it because I believe that people that are not into it like maybe don't understand like like how hlp works and what it is exactly sure the the base"
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "idea is similar to Unis swap you pull some assets and assets provide liquidity on the platform and uh but the assets hopefully ACR some fees or Alpha that outweigh the um the fact that it needs"
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to trade against people so this idea of a liquidity pool like on Unis swap you put two assets they're the price is the ratio of the assets and this is V2 I guess and uh when someone comes in and"
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trade they pay a swap fee and the swap fee goes to the liquidity providers it's a fully decentralized way of providing liquidity I think it's very it's that idea is revolutionary uh and so that was"
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the basis of hlp the problem with uni swap is it gets picked off and just it just like doesn't make money it bleeds out over time um and HP is meant to solve that issue uh it solves it by so"
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it has a pooled set of Assets in this case the only asset is usdc because that's the only asset on the platform uh and it holds these per positions but it doesn't get on average it trades into"
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these positions at a small profit and this is basically just how hft works like when you're running an hft strategy you want to make maybe it's one basis point maybe it's .1 basis points um on"
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the volume you do on average and like each specific trade is very noisy you could lose 10% make 10% uh if you have millions and millions of Trades uh it average and so that's the idea of hlp as"
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "well it's a liquidity pool that makes money uh and historically it has uh I think that's like a feature that people really like because uh it perpetuates this like crypto ethos hey um it perpetuates this crypto ethos"
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of community ownership into this traditionally very the the central limit or book which is traditionally very dominated by a few big players uh that's probably the biggest feature I would"
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "guess I guess on the UI we're trying to build the features that are that are loved by professional Traders we're seeing more and more big users on the platform like they'll be addresses"
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trading you know like hundreds of millions of dollars uh per week or or maybe even like on a big day someone will trade like hundred million dollars and like they're doing it through the UI"
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're not doing it through Automation and these Traders really care like they spend they would spend like the majority of their waking hours like on your platform when when they decide that they"
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like want to be trading um and so like really making their experience optimal is is a big Focus um of Hyperliquid and so starting off like studying what the centralized exchanges do we have scale"
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "orders we have different types of tpsl associated with your orders associated with your positions um basic just going through and like or we basically order rank order all the features that binance"
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "pivate have and we do them in the order of importance uh so uh I think scale is like the most recent interesting feature let people scale like limit prices um that are lower and lower for bids or higher and"
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "higher for asks I've been using it so cool I like it yeah um and then like tawop is coming soon there's another big one lets you execute a position without too much immediate slippage uh basically"
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like dollar cost average effectively into into a per position um you know cross margin isolated margin like I guess like everything that a professional Trader needs be we want to build uh yeah and they're hard to build"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "because the L1 is decentralized and we have to think about how it plays into all this thing um but we'll we'll we'll find a way to make everything work at the end what are like the most exciting"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "features that will come to liquid um we've seen a basically dydx um like thinking about launching permissionless markets um is it something you have in mind because like in my opinion this is"
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like very very very interesting um um and that really helps like the dexes in my opinion being competitive and having like an advantage because you could trade things that you could not trade on"
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "centralized exchange and this is something I've I've seen also with you with a liquid like launching pre-launch tokens um I mean being able to trade tokens but doesn't exist yet so"
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "personally I've been trading Jupiter mainly um so yeah maybe what are like the big features coming in uh are permissionless markets coming only per liquids and yeah uh yeah Hyperliquid is"
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "designed to be permissionless at the end of the day so there's not a separate feature of permissionless markets the the Oracle is built into the L1 uh the validators publish Oracle prices so in"
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "some sense all you really need for per permissionless markets is well like the code needs to fully mature so that you can decentralize like that is like the biggest technical hurdle but that's kind"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of that's like the long-term priority anyway um and then you just need some mechanism for validators to agree that like on an oracle source and Publishing that to the chain once you have Quorum"
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of stake publishing something then I mean that's really all you need so so yeah that is that is how it will work long maybe maybe maybe my point is like it's not permissionless Market it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "permissionless everything that that is that is the goal so maybe permissionless UI or something like that so maybe people can build their own like UI terminal whatever like uh like"
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just people are already building Integrations uh one of the firsts that integrated was logx they're this cross chain aggregator per protocol they're one of the first to integrate hyper"
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "liquid they they do a decent amount of volume routing so they route they actually route like supposedly a bunch of venues but basically like I think like 80% of their volume goes to hyper"
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "liquid because hyper quid has the best liquidity and best prices um this is very interesting because sometimes you don't really care about like the platform you care about like having the"
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "best price and the best liquidity yeah so they I mean they built the front end so like their users are using their front end but they need to Route the trade somewhere and so that they're just"
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "using hyper as a back end and we're like totally happy to support that and we we're seeing a bunch of other Integrations you know start and are in progress and we are are avidly supporting that it's very different"
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "model from centralized exchanges where you want to keep people on the platform for us it's uh there's nothing better than people wanting to build different parts of the stack that are redundant"
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's kind of like client diversity and ethereum is like a big discussion uh I think like front-end diversity for decks should also be an important thing like otherwise it's not really a DEX yeah end"
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "of the day like no part no part of the system should be both centralized and entral to you I would like to end this interview with like um like one or two questions like not 100% related to"
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "liquids but mostly like you um so for example like what is your vision of defy for like the next three years like what what will change in your opinion um I don't know if it's like on the tech side"
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "on the user side it's on the regulation side or whatever like how do you think we'll see this ecosystem evolve and maybe grow is there any like things that will grow more than others or like"
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "things that will you you anticipate like changing a lot for example yeah that's hard I know yeah three years is an interesting time frame I think one cycle sure I'm pretty I'm pretty confident that three years from"
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "now most of the volume uh most of the order book volume will be on decentralized venues uh maybe even like 90% of it um I we're doing a big part in making this shift why so there's several"
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "reasons one of them is that it is just I think the main the main reason is just that it is a better way to do things like why do people use crypto at all right like why don't people why don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people just buy stocks or like gold or something it's because they I think well by and large it is because they think it's a better way of doing things and this I think it's a very powerful idea I"
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I think if you just zoom out into like how Humanity has evolved it's you know we started off very like decentralized right just like a bunch of animals doing whatever but then like but there's this"
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like shift and I think like when civilization started it was like very centralized right it's like the the king kind of has like all the value and then they like you know have like surfs or"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "whatever like slaves doing all it's like very it's like very noway we look back and we say oh that was that was a dark time and things are progressing to be better right like democracy was like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really very big uh Innovation there uh but you know but but like like who's to say that that that progression has to stop with where we're currently at uh and I feel like crypto is like a further"
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "extension of that just like Humanity like be better and so yeah like you ask why why on a de I think the reason that's people don't train on a DE because the dexes suck um but if Dex are"
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "good like people people like evolve towards doing things in a way that they have agency and Independence and do not rely on trusting someone like FTX to hold their money only to lose it all and"
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "then to trust the lawyers and the legal system to like give them back their money when in fact like you know like it's more than whole but the lawyers are just going to like probably bleeded dry"
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "until it's like you get back some like measly fraction of what you had and like in either of the case like like they're like two two big centralizing factors that like screwed over all the all the"
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like real users and so uh the really the question really is not like why would they switch it's like you just you just need to build something that is that is good enough for users to compel them"
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this way and so like I think that'll happen in the next three years um I think in terms of like crypto specific things probably like one big view I have is that uh you need like you need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "build dedicated l1s for the most important applications um I think there's a lot of there's still a lot of focus on infrastructure in crypto and that's cool I think people build a lot"
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of cool small things on decentralized like smart contract platforms I think F Tech was a really good example but I think by and large what crypto needs is is like sophisticated complex protocols"
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that work well under load that are actually decentralized I think for these things uh it's it's impossible to build them uh or it's harder to build them on a smart contract platform than on an L1"
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "if you want them to really scale and like displace centralized exchanges um yeah so I think that's probably like my more contrary in and so you mentioned that in your opinion like dexes will"
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "take most of the traded volume um so if you believe that don't you think that centralized exchanges will see the piece of the cake like decrease and will not like that and maybe we'll try to be more"
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "decentralized like do maybe do you see like binance pits or biger trading firms like um getting involved more and more with those decentralized solution or maybe creating their own decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "solution I don't know like like how do you think they will move into this new paradig or at least new environments yeah I think I think centrales will probably see the value if they haven't"
  },
  {
    "i": 323,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "already and move to some hybrid solution is my guess um the problem is they have a big business to protect so they're not really incentivized to take risks that are good but risky uh like if you gave"
  },
  {
    "i": 324,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "bance the option to like have a let's say like have like a 20% chance of being the biggest decks but that risks B like let's say that but that doesn't go well like they lose their binance users and"
  },
  {
    "i": 325,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the Dex doesn't go well then they lose like their whole business with let's say like 20% chance uh I don't think they I don't think anyone at binance will make that business decision but if you don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 326,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "move if you don't change you die most of the time yeah this is kind of just like how capitalism works I think like if you look at Google right like why did why did Google not build like all the"
  },
  {
    "i": 327,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "startups right what like I know why people not build open like they they have deep mind sure whatever but like why did like the real animation come from this like small upstart company or like why did like the"
  },
  {
    "i": 328,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "big car makers not build Tesla right like I think the answer is always the same it's like people always ask this question like why the big players why can't they just like pivot they have"
  },
  {
    "i": 329,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "more resources they have everything um and I think the answer is always like like money isn't everything and like resources care they buy them and they don't take risks exactly yeah so often they'll just"
  },
  {
    "i": 330,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like acquire something small and like like Facebook will acquire Instagram and whatever and like yeah maybe binance will acquire a DEX the problem the difference here is that dexes if you"
  },
  {
    "i": 331,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "build dexes correctly then they are decentralized platforms that cannot be bought so maybe they can buy all the tokens it's buying like 10% of the tokens of some decks they think is good"
  },
  {
    "i": 332,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "um and that's a way of like perpetuating their their like business and like yeah maybe maybe that's what happens um yeah hard to say that would be very a very interesting moveie in my opinion I mean"
  },
  {
    "i": 333,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't know if you will see it like this cycle but I believe if it has to happen maybe this this cycle might be the good one um so we'll see final questions um maybe um what like in in"
  },
  {
    "i": 334,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "what do you invest like do do you invest in Bitcoin do you invest in ethereum do you invest in your company do you invest in other companies startups uh or I don't know like um um real estate all"
  },
  {
    "i": 335,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these kind of things like what what are you doing with your money um I'm historically a very bad investor uh I have um it's just not my Edge like I think Traders as a Trader the one of"
  },
  {
    "i": 336,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the first things you learn is like if you don't if you're not good at something you're probably like very bad at it when it comes to markets as one example like my I think my cumulative"
  },
  {
    "i": 337,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "return on Venture Investments so far is like minus 100% hard to be worse than that um I think that's pretty much it I think we've covered like a lot of topics I hope you enjoyed the interview um thank"
  },
  {
    "i": 338,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you very much for your time and for all this I hope the people watching us until the end of the show uh liked it and maybe final words final thoughts you you would like to share about like maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 339,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "what you're doing um where we can follow E Liquid what's next um or general advice final words uh yeah thanks for listening thanks for having me on the on the show um if you're interested in"
  },
  {
    "i": 340,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Hyperliquid I would say just please try it and uh let us know your thoughts follow us you can follow us on Twitter uh the Discord is very active I think it's like probably the most active Dex"
  },
  {
    "i": 341,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Discord and we try to keep it we try to keep it like actually high quality so people go there and don't just talk about high liquidity you know people talk about trading people talk about um"
  },
  {
    "i": 342,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "defi like what's going on in the markets in general so I think it's gener like a very good group of people you know pop in there and share your thoughts share your feedback we try to be very"
  },
  {
    "i": 343,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "responsive uh with with that stuff um yeah and I think that's that's it thanks for having me on thank you very much Jeff"
  }
]