[
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Hi everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm your host, Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Today's topic is the future of Ethereum, the Ethereum Foundation, and ETH. Here to discuss are Zack Cole, managing partner at Number Group and president of the Ethereum Community Foundation, and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Greg Markou, co-founder and CEO of Sprinter and co-founder of ChainSafe."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Welcome, Zack and Greg."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Hello. Thanks for having me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Thanks for having us."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, the Ethereum Foundation, sorry, the Ethereum Community has been in turmoil over the last week about several departures, especially of senior people from the foundation, and there's been"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "concern about all of that. Plus, then we saw that David Hoffman of Bankless announced that he had sold his last ETH."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And we're seeing ethers trading at about $2,100, and last summer and fall it was about 5K."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then on Sunday, Vitalik announced, quote, \"The EF will be a smaller ship.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And he doubled down on Ethereum's CROPS values as being its guiding light. CROPS standing for censorship resistance, open source, privacy, and security."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And all of these developments are just the latest in kind of like an unfolding 2-year crisis in Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And you know, it feels like the community has these concerns um that Ethereum kind of like is losing ground to other chains. Those were quelled a little bit in 2025 with the appointment of Tomas Stańczak as"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "co-executive director."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But then he departed after 11 months."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so, it's sort of feels to the community like Vitalik and the EF are reverting back to their old ways. And those were the ways that kind of had caused a lot of angst in the community."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, but you know, before we get into the specifics of like each of the events, I was just curious to hear each of your top-line thoughts on all this drama. And Zach, why don't we start with you?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, so I mean I've been kind of banging on that drum for a while about the EF and their performance and kind of their attitude toward the broader ecosystem. And I think they took some"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "steps in the right direction, but it it definitely does feel like a few steps back. But overall, I think the sentiment and kind of like the way that people are feeling about the EF right now is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "pretty much directly correlated with price. I think that if ETH were at like $5,000, I don't think anybody would be complaining about what the EF is or isn't doing necessarily. So, I don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "want to be too harsh on the Ethereum Foundation. You know, I just I think that I think that a lot of it is just uh people's angst over price action right now, which I think is out of the hands"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "of the EF. Not to say that they shouldn't consider price and focus on that as like a you know, security component of the network itself. I just think that a lot of it is probably just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "bear market things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Huh. Okay. Greg, what about you?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, I think uh I mean like generally the bear market and like the current price probably doesn't like help too much with the general sentiment of things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I'd like to say that also that they you know, the EF probably been growing up quite a bit over the last you know, since Tomas stepped in. There was all that turmoil that was like back then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "when they when they were looking at different opportunities like even at Danny Ryan like as a potential option back then."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I think Tomas did like a really good job at least to like try and realign where they need to be focused."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh and yeah, I mean him departing and then seeing like all these other departures, there's probably it's like a mixed bag."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh you know, a lot of these people have been there like most of them had been there like four or five or six years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, and so whether this is like time for them to just take a break, move on, or pursue other things is something to still understand, but generally speaking, like Yeah. There's been a lot of growing up."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "There's been a lot of cutting of things that have, you know, people have been historically complaining about for quite a long time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "A lot more transparency, and I think like the latest news that surrounded like with crops, crops, corpse."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um Crops, I think is what it is. Um >> [laughter] >> has uh >> We should just call it corpse. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like I think there's probably some truth to it to a degree, but at the same time, like you know, it does feel like there was like a bit of a shift when Tomasch left and to what we have now, but things are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "heading positively, which is good. But like generally speaking, it looks like things are headed in a positive direction nonetheless, cuz I think like even Vitalik's tweet kind of slightly changed my opinion"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "yesterday. Um Oh, wait. And I'm I'm sorry. Wait, just when you say um things are headed in a positive direction, what exactly are you pointing to?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like that like the EF growing up and realizing that like priorities, you know, where their priorities need to be and where they have to lean on like other teams, you know, to to to hold"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "ground in other areas."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "My only Yeah, my only my rebuttal my my concern about that is that I feel like we've heard this before, and they tried it out with Tomasch, and like kind of [ __ ] the bed. And now they're just like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "\"Let's just go back to what we know, which is like infinite gardening and funding longevity research and like doing a bunch of [ __ ] stuff that nobody in the world gives a [ __ ] about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "other than Vitalik and his little cabal.\" I'm just going to say it. Like the EF is completely out of touch. So, I mean now that I've dunked on them a little bit, like I can also say that like at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "least they're acknowledging that other organizations are going to have to step in, but then it becomes a question of whether or not they're actually going to like seed those reins to any other"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "organization that is more competent and more in touch than they are."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Uh because they they just aren't."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They're like funding hippos in Asia and all that and like, you know, it's just that's just stupid. Nobody cares about that. Like it doesn't matter. Like like we're like Ethereum is no longer a startup. It's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "now a mature and robust ecosystem. And like you know, you can't really like take the same liberties that we did 6 years ago, 10 years ago. Like it's just completely different. There's like billions,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "trillions of dollars on the line here and like people's livelihoods are dependent on that. There are people with families. There Like my entire career has been on Ethereum. If it goes to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "[ __ ] I mean what am I going to do?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah, so we're going to we're going to get into all the specifics cuz I feel like each of the points that I kind of, you know, used in my little summary at the beginning, we can dive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "into each of those. So we're going to do that in a moment, but first we're going to take a quick word from the sponsors who make the show possible."
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  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Back to my conversation with Zack and Greg."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, both of you kind of hinted at this before, um but, you know, to my mind actually the fact that so many of the recent departures from the foundation were actually senior people who'd been"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "there quite a while and were extremely well-known in the community, that actually didn't seem bullish to me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "In fact, it seemed quite concerning, but it feels like you guys are not that concerned or yeah, just talk about your reaction cuz you know, to my mind several of these are like true evange- evangelists."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, um I don't think it's super concerning. I mean, mature organizations have churn, you know, and those guys have been around for a minute. And and wait, even the fact that they all"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "happened, you know, in the wake of Tomas leaving, like like basically Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> It's just within this span of three months. I'm not saying it's like bullish by any means. I'm just saying that like it is a signal of a maturing ecosystem and maybe not a necessary maybe the EF"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "isn't maturing. Maybe it's like regressing from what it did with Samach."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I don't know. Either way like the ecosystem itself is growing and if these people don't have if they're not aligned with what's going on with internally in the EF, it's probably better that they just leave and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "start their own thing. Like I'm sure that they'll keep working in this ecosystem or at least I hope so. So it's kind of hard to really make a prediction without like on the long tail"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "without like seeing how it plays out and like what's going on in these people's heads cuz I haven't really spoken to any of them. So I don't really know exactly what's going on. I'm just kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "guessing, you know. Yeah and and just because I didn't actually name them but but I do want to, you know, some of them are Tim Beiko, Barnaby Mano, Josh Stark, Trent Trent Van Epps, Carl Beek, Julian"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Matt. Like these are these are well-known."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Right, they're well-known but what honestly what have those people like not to disrespect anything that they've done, what have they done recently? Like what have those people contributed to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the EF and to the broader ecosystem recently?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I mean like I don't know if each thing that they were doing would have their name on it necessarily but are you saying that you don't even feel like they were that important or I'm not saying that they're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "not important. I just feel like that they were essentially tenured to some extent and they're kind of just like taking on hobby projects and doing X Y and Z and if they were doing large"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "things and they were responsible for larger initiatives then maybe that's another failure of the Ethereum Foundation for not highlighting the initiatives that they're leading because"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "personally I don't really know what the EF is doing. I don't know what any individual employee is doing there. I don't know what the board is doing. I don't know anything. All I know is what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Vitalik says and that's pretty much it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So I think that would just be another like failure on their behalf to like highlight what people are doing cuz as involved in the ecosystem as I am, I can't even say what they were doing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Aside from Trent working on protocol guild. You know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And Greg, what about you?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um >> [clears throat] >> I mean like I wouldn't find it cons- like is it is it bullish? Like probably like no, but am I concerned yet? Like yeah, I wouldn't be concerned unless we see like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "an exodus go to like other ecosystems. Yeah, that's a good point."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> check and read on most of this is like this isn't like a Max Resnick, you know, uh you know, two birds up, like, you know, I'm done with you guys, you know, Solana and totally are my god. This is just I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "from what I've heard, like most of them are going to continue to like work. You know what I mean? Like they're going to continue to like do stuff in Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's just maybe you know, just not in the EF. Um and I think that's like healthy churn, like Zach said. It's it's only when an organization goes like negative like this when they all start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know, getting picked up by other teams. And that's probably to like Yeah, at that point it's it's probably due to like a various amount of other reasons. Uh Yeah, if they start building"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "in Solana, then we're [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but they're also like they've been around. Like they churned. Like Peter last year."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It's like >> From Gnosis?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, it was Yeah, it was a natural churn. He like didn't do anything for like 6 to 12 months. He would like show up one or two PRs a month, you know, I'm I'm giving him not enough credit, but like, you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know, like the output like slowly dropped and dropped and dropped and then it was just like, all right, I'm moving on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Right? And they did None of these people have had as big of a blowout exit that he did. Like his was actually bad. But what So but what about the fact that all of this is happening after Tomáš stepped"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "down and he only came in 11 months prior. And when he came in, that was really in response to changes that the community was demanding and kind of discontent really amongst the community."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And you know, when he started, people loved him. Just like the praise I would see for him on the timeline and he was just so open. He was very clearly kind of like talking and listening to all the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "builders that he could. And so it was a real shock when he stepped down so quickly because it really felt like the community was extremely happy with him."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so, you know, it kind of indicated almost like the foundation was going to go back to not really listening to the community. But I'm curious to hear like why you even think that happened at all."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think that they I think that they gave into the pressure from the community, but they didn't really want to cede any control at all. So, they put Tomáš in there and they didn't even give him any"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like rent free reign. He he he was still co-director, whatever, with like co-ED with >> Showalter. Showalter Ryan."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So, you know, like he never actually had the chance to implement the type of change that he wanted to see within an organization that's actually real. And when he tried to push to institute those"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "changes, uh he essentially I think what I think happened is he got run out because he he's not conforming to the whole like infinite garden like nonsense that that we we've seen. And you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and then when he left and they he departed, they replaced him with this other mysterious fellow that nobody even knows and hasn't ever met or seen. And now they're releasing a bunch of like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you know, like I was Now they're releasing a bunch of crazy deviant art looking [ __ ] that looks like they just walked out of a ketamine orgy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You're talking about the mandate? Yes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That doesn't It doesn't make any sense."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They could just say crap. They can release some sort of blog post. They don't need to put some stuff out that's like looks like they paid some furry on Instagram to like come up with some sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "of manga-based manifesto that like doesn't make any sense. Like you you know, it's just it's it's [laughter] that's crazy. That's like super bearish."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like I don't want to see that out of the organization that's responsible for the financial future of my child."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm going to show it on the screen so people can see. Yeah, we were kind of laughing at at the document. No no, it should be a PDF. It should be a PDF."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and yeah, it's it definitely um has a certain aesthetic. Like even the fonts seemed kind of like a funny choice to me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But um yeah, so okay. So um so we're kind of like jumping ahead, but let Okay, let's do this. We're we're going to This is great. Let's talk about that. So yeah, this is what it looks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like. [laughter] This looks insane."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah. [laughter] Like I'll put it this way. I don't think Vitalik would have released this."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Greg Greg I Greg I know you want to keep it like not bearish. You want to keep it bullish, but you can't look at this and be like, oh yeah, dude, that makes sense for a financial future. This is a great"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "place to put your money, institutions."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like we're totally into Like this is what they released to prove that they're like that they have their fingers on the pulse."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like I would have left the organization, too."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I don't know like what And then it says that they have to kill themselves. Come on, dude."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Wait wait wait."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Wait, it does?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, there's this epic coup license that's like maybe Ethereum Foundation fall on our swords and blah blah blah if we ever fail to do this X Y and Z, and it's like, dude, come on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "If it was just like weird-looking design, that's like one thing, but the copy itself is just as delusional and out of touch. Oh, you're talking about this is on page 11 at the bottom. It's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like a a little Yeah, manga cartoon."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um >> Crazy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah. Well, so okay, so neither of you know Bastian because okay, let we're going to skip ahead to to Vitalik's post on Sunday just because like something that was interesting to me was in his post, he said um"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Hold on, he said something I just want to find the exact quote. I think he said something like Bastian is leading this transition at the foundation. That's what he said. So, do you think that the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "mandate came from Bastian or do you think it came from Vitalik or maybe it doesn't matter?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "But like >> Um I mean so you have a thousand board."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Vitalik is majority on the on that board. So, regardless of whatever you says, if you look at like a corporate org chart, like Vitalik is at the top and he's in his legal right to do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "whatever he wants to do. So, he can say that like it's decentralized or somebody else is leading or somebody else wants to do this, but it's not really how it is in practice. Like like the EF is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "essentially, you know, the mouthpiece for Vitalik. That's that's just how it is and you can't you can't deny that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So, whatever he wants to say, like whether they like it or not, he's in charge of the Ethereum Foundation. So, nothing's going to happen without his approval."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Craig, what do you think of that? Do you agree?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um yeah. I mean, generally speaking, it like that from that perspective, I don't think this is like anything different than what we had like, I don't know, a decade ago with all the drama of like, you know, super"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "shadowy uh government inside the EF. Yeah, like it's just like more Yeah, yeah, it's just more transparent."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "But it's just obvious."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like yeah, like there's no way that both of them didn't sign off on it. Um which is I think the concerning aspect of this cuz like as Zach delightfully pointed out, it just looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, on one hand like it's nice to see like, you know, creativeness. Um on the other hand, I think like when we're fighting for like a price, you know, report, so to speak, uh especially at a mandate level, it's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like a little bit of McKinsey won't hurt you."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It [laughter] it'll probably help."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, right."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And there's a fine balance, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "[laughter] This isn't summer camp, dude. Like this isn't art school."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Okay, you guys, this is this is cracking me up. Um well, >> [laughter] >> so so one thing is um and I can't remember if I asked you this specifically, but do you think that the recent departures have to do with"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Tamasch also no longer being co-ED or or do you think it's just like the timing is I think that Tamasch leaving was kind of like made it obvious that, you know, no that the people at the EF"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "don't really have the intention of actually delivering on what they're promising the community. I think it's just kind of like, you know, hot air."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Um that's what I think and there's no actual intention to like make good on any of the, you know, what they're saying."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Cuz if they did, then we we'd see more than just words. We would see action, you know, like uh what what should happen from if Vitalik actually wants to put his money where his mouth is, what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "he would what he could do and like let let let's say that he doesn't want want control of the EF and see control of the ecosystem entirely, right? Like he wants to maintain that power and concentrate"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it in the app. Cool, that's great. Sure."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Just like be a be open about that. And then also open up the board. Why don't they add Why don't they appoint other board members that come from DFI, that come from different protocols, that come"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "from an institutional background, that are all public public figures that have a track record that we can hold accountable as opposed to just this random dude who's out there and we have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to like put together a bunch of pieces across the internet to figure out who he is. And when we look up his name, you get this weird like similarly psychopathic weird like like documents"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "out there like the guy's personal website. Maybe it's not him, but if it were me, if there were a Zach Kohl.com out there that was saying a bunch of crazy psycho babble [ __ ] I would be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like, \"Hey guys, there's another Zach Kohl in the world that's even more unhinged than I am.\" Like let me let me just show you like this isn't me, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "But instead you we don't hear anything."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "We don't know who these people are. We have no idea who's making any sort of decisions that are that are that are that impact like, you know, everybody's ability to survive within this ecosystem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and like directly contribute to its health or otherwise."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, Greg, do you want to add anything?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I mean it's just like I'm pretty sure Tomas was on like one a two-year term with like one-year renewal dates on it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And I think it's like when I saw him leave, I it was pretty clear to me that like it's just not working."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um sure, like you could probably claim like the AI psychosis like was like peak at that point in time as well and maybe it was like I want to do something different, but like if you're trying to make an impact and a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "change like you got to give it like two years. I mean, you know, like big orgs like that don't move fast, Uh uh generally speaking."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And again, like, you know, I'll go back to the shadow government era. It's like like I was actually saying, it's you know, I know there's people in the EF that know who Bastion is and like he may"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "be this great guy, but like when it comes to like center for the Ethereum, it's like nobody knows who this is. He's making all these decisions to just like axe a bunch of people. Um and axe a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "bunch of stuff, put out a bunch of stuff."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Whether Sorry, and when I say axe, I don't mean like the people that departed. I mean like, you know, like they're they've cut funding for a bunch of [ __ ] Yeah, he's making a lot of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "major decisions. Yeah, he's just doing a bunch of stuff and like I don't There's like no background on this guy, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And what Why isn't Why isn't he Why isn't he on Unchained? Why are Greg and I here? Like why aren't you talking to Bastion? Like, you know, like Do you Do you know who he is? Have you ever Do you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "know what he looks like?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like what color hair does he have?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I tried to figure that out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I messaged I found a photo of A Bastion Al on the internet and I asked the EF if that was him and they said no. And I got physical descriptions from people who know what he looks like and yeah, that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "definitely wasn't him."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But Is that guy DB Cooper? Like >> [laughter] >> Like Like this is what I kind of said in my post and the EF comms person was so mad at me, but like you know, he is such a contrast to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Tomas, right? It's like Tomas was out there, he was talking to people, like you could meet him, he you know, he had a presence on the internet, like on on X, like he just was engaging in every"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "way, in person, online, like, you know, he kind of he was a visible presence, he had his hands in things and he gave people confidence cuz they could kind of see what he was up to. Bastion, it's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like no history, um you know, you cannot find him online except the strange website that we can't even confirm if that's him. Um, then there's like the fact that even as this interim co-ED uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "position that he has, he just has barely tweeted since the um announcement. And then but the other thing too is like they said he's the interim co-ED, but there's literally no information about how they're trying to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "find the new ED, you know, what the next steps are, like what the process is, it's just like it's just he's interim, that's it. Yeah. That's the only information."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah. Um, so okay. Oh, uh-huh. Yeah, this is I mean like this is just like a repeat pattern of like a lot of things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I said this on Twitter like like the other day."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's like the EF in general they've never talked to anybody."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, you know, like I know for a fact there are L2s like historically that were like pissed off cuz like they had never had a conversation about like, you know, anything when it was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "come to marketing, when it came to like really anything. It was offhand researchers would, but like there was never like the org itself would."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh, I know Tamas like attempted to change that. Um, and there's only like as of recent like people actually focus on DeFi. Like Charles Charles and I think it's Yvon, um, and they're like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "actually going out doing the work, you know, but it it took like 10 years to get to this point."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Now DeFi TVL is like low. It's like too late. Too little, too late."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, and it's just like a repeat, it just feels the repeat, right? Where like this new guy sure he might be a great person, but none of us no one's been able to actually like hear from him, to see from him,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "understand anything, and he's out here cutting budgets left and right."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So, and spinning people out and whatever else."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> It's concerning, you know. So, let's let's go back to the mandate just for a second because I did want to ask, you know, it's like um at that time there were there were these rumors that you know, said that um the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "employees had to sign a loyalty pledge to Prop's principles. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> And if not, they would be expelled from the foundation. And um like do you think that's coming from Bastion or from Vitalik or and what do you even think of the fact that maybe that was what they were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trying to do, get people to do? No, this is just a scapegoat."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like truthfully, like this actually pisses me off as like somebody who like runs companies. This is like an ineffective job at being able to fire people over the years. Cuz they don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "hold people accountable, they don't team hold teams accountable. Yes, they're a great PMs, they're great engineers, but like how many times have like it's just been like a 20 mil budget to just do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "[ __ ] and there's like no enforceability at the EM level. Like you know, I I always yelling about this with Tamash. It's like there should be like engineering managers and they're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "held to like an actual standard. Um that's like it doesn't even have to be public. But like >> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "budgets just run."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know? This is like their excuse to get rid of the people that just didn't fit the culture mold and also at the same time probably just do a bunch of culling at the same time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, makes me feel like they want their cake they want to want their cake and then they want to eat it too, you know, it's like what they want everything but they're not willing to actually go the extra mile to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "ensure that all these things are actually implemented. Now they're kind of backpedaling."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "No."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Oh, like meaning they by trying to have people sign the loyalty pledge, that was like a sort of indirect way rather than just like having conversations with people kind of about like what what the mission is and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like making sure they're on board or something. Is that what you mean?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Uh what I mean? Yeah, yeah, for sure."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Okay. Okay."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And then they're using that as an excuse to to get rid of folks, like Greg was saying."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah. Okay. Well, let's now talk about the next event that happened last week, which um so basically we've kind of filled in all the backstory leading up to the departures."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But um as the community was having this conversation about the departures, David Hoffman of Bankless he had sold his last ETH, which was shocking because Bankless has famously been an Ethereum line"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "podcast from day one."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um his co-host Ryan Sean Adams is still believer in Ethereum, but he's not going to be visible um or as visible on the show anymore. So, I was curious like what your reaction was to hearing that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "news."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I don't think it's news. I mean, like David's been kind of like doing his own thing for a few years now as far as I'm concerned. Like primarily they're they're entrepreneurs, they're business"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "people, and they're going to do whatever's best for their bottom dollar at Bankless, and that doesn't necessarily include what's good for Ethereum. Like they have a venture studio, they have like or they have a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "venture like a VC fund now, and they have like, you know, fiduciary responsibilities. But I mean, David has been doing some like bearish [ __ ] for a couple years. It's not like anything new. I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "maybe him saying that he sold his ETH now is maybe um kind of like a cry for attention because he's kind of pigeonholed himself as this like villain essentially, I think, in regard to the broader Ethereum"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "ecosystem. And it's been about 3 years since that's like started, 3 or 4 years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You know, but I don't I don't I don't think it's going to impact me. I'm not going to sell ETH because David did. That's stupid, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like if people buy and sell all the time. I don't tweet about it. Like, I think it's just a cry for attention."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Well, okay, but I mean his whole identity was wrapped up in Ethereum. So."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> It was, but I don't I don't when I think of David, I don't think of an ETH maxi and I haven't thought about him in that light for 3 or 4 years. Like, I don't I think of him as a shark that's out there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to make money. And that's fine."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You know? That's what if that's who he wants to be and that's who he is, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, at least he's not out there trying to say that he like shilling ETH while also covertly dumping his bags, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> [gasps] >> Greg, what about you?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't really care that much. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> [clears throat] >> I think it's like I I I I do think though I mean, it I think it just shows a little bit of character."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, when you have a personality that big and as you said, you've like built the brand on the back of ETH for as long as it was until as long as it has been."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, it gets clicks."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "That's how I like to look at it, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Okay. Well, let's move on because we have so many other topics. So. You don't have a strong opinion. One thing to know one thing to note though is that like the EF and Vitalik and all them say they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "don't want to be kingmakers, they're directly responsible for creating David Hoffman. They gave him a spotlight, they gave him a microphone, they brought him in. Like, before that he was just like a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "podcaster that did whatever, had like a few hundred followers, and then Vitalik put him on to kind of become the de facto podcast of Ethereum, like, you know, what, 5 6 years ago, something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like that. Um, whenever there was conflict starting in Russia, he kind of like gave him the spotlight there. So."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And but I don't know what you mean by that. He like officially said that Bankless is the Ethereum podcast. didn't >> say it. He didn't officially say it, but he put them on and he supported them and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "he like gave them the microphone. That's what he That's what Vitalik did. That's what he did back in like 5 years ago or something like that. And before that, Bankless wasn't even really It wasn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "even really a thing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "He was working on POV Crypto. That was like another podcast that I was on several times and it was just a tiny podcast. So, I'm just saying that like Vitalik giving people the mic in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "spotlight is actually like they they are kingmakers. So, that's kind of contradictory to a lot of what what they're trying to say now."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "All right. Well, so the day after David's announcement, Don Krad Feist, who previously, you know, did research at the foundation and then last fall left to go to Tempo, um he tweeted a proposal that um at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "least like from a podcast that he and I did together last week on the Defiant."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm not even sure if he was like incredibly serious about it or like like was even seriously putting it forward."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It The way he spoke about it felt like he was more just putting an idea out there, but he tweeted, quote, \"If we want to get Ethereum back to winning, one, create an organization with"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "credible funding, minimum $1 billion as a start, find a leader who is competent and wants to fight, make it accountable with a board of people who want ETH to go up and a charter that holds the org accountable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to it, fund it permanently with a significant amount of staking revenue.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, what I found interesting is that like in So, in my opinion, I think the EF can totally have crops principles as its guiding light, but also do all the things that Don Krad mentioned in his"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "post. Like, I don't think that they're mutually exclusive at all. But in my opinion, the way the EF is operating, it's like they want to do the crops thing, but they don't want to fight for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it. They just want to like be in their ivory tower and, you know, sort of build it and they will come kind of concept."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um so, anyway, I was curious like what you thought of his proposal."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Um I mean, I think the big problem is like funding. Where like sure, give someone a billion dollars and they'll make ETH great again. Like cool. All right. I mean, I I think it also boils"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "down to the EF not acknowledging prices like a significant driving factor behind the ecosystem and actually one of the foundational pillars of security within the network. When we switch to proof of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "stake, the value of ETH becomes the value of the network. It's It It's It's equal to the security overall of the network. So, I think that's like a big big problem. I think it's less like oh,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "give someone else a billion dollars and more like hey, let's like boil this down to fundamentals. Like what do we need to do? I think like we need to really focus on Ethereum as the, you know, like the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the the asset of the network that we need to drive value to. And I think that a lot of that has been cannibalized because there've been a lot of poorly made strategic decisions, uh like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "driving a lot of things to L2s and like making a lot of protocol decisions without considering the economics of the network and the protocol itself. Um and just like by disregarding all of that, I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "think it's just done a huge uh disservice to ETH and, you know, uh the ETH holders, which should be treated as fiduciaries essentially."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, like the EF has historically, outside of like a few core teams, obviously like historically a good chunk of the folks that work there are like very strong academic researchers."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right? Like they don't The The concept of like applied research isn't something that's very like prevalent there. And when you look at the >> explain what that means for non-technical people."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah, so like, you know, on the applied research it would be somebody that, you know, has a little bit more like say product focus. Um so they they can go and say like okay, this is the ideal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "state, but you know, to get there, we're going to have to do make some trade-offs and like this is the path we're going to like realistically take."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, and they might also be on the engineering side."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, and kind of where I'm going with this is that like historically and even I mean even till today like most of that like the applied side and the actual engineering side is generally"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "outsourced, right? Like that's why there is consensus client teams and all the funding that happens to external parties. Um, that's probably a lot of it and including operationally like due to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "just like execution um, and leadership like internally, right? Over the years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like the team they are not built to hold people accountable to build and if you know, to build especially on the product side."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like even the internal teams they run pretty autonomously. So the ones that are working well then work like Geth um, and a few of the other ones like they're they're just they get funded."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "They they hear what research wants and half the time they're the ones shooting down the proposals."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right? At the like core devs um, level."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And so yeah, I mean like I think that's an also interesting to watch as we see a lot of these folks leave, but also some of the teams that get forcefully spun out with like fixed funding,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know, and potentially no renewals on it. It's in reaction as I see it. So like they're just not good at it. It's when a team's like similarly a startup's not good at building product, but"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "they're good at like doing X and they focus on that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, yeah, you know, it's like that's the inevitability, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "All right, so now let's talk about Vitalik's post on Sunday. Um, we'll we'll just talk about a part of it at first. So um, he first of all, I just need to say he said that this was just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "his views. Um so, obviously there's other people at the foundation and like other board members."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um but as we said, everybody knows that what Vitalik says is it's probably going to go. So, anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh as I mentioned earlier, he said that Bastián was executing the EF's transition, which you know, was interesting to me just because it feels very Vitalik to me, but maybe that's why"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Bastián is the co-ED."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and then he talked about like how Google started as don't be evil, but then he said that all large companies now are bending to what he called greed for financial gain, totalizing visions"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of accelerated superintelligence, infiltration by sociopaths, and craven capitulation to, or worse, active participation in government pressure for ideological control, surveillance, and war."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [snorts] >> And then he said that like the fact that this was happening influenced his vision of the EF to not be a center of Ethereum, but as one node with a defined purpose alongside other nodes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then basically he also talked about how the EF has limited financial resources with only about 0.0 point uh sorry, 0.16% of all ETH."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And for that reason, it will focus those resources on pursuing longevity over breath."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, you know, to my the way I read that was like maybe some of these departures have to just frankly do with money. Um because with the ETH price down by more than half from the fall, um you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that means that their budget has also shrunk. Um but then the last bit is he talked about how Ethereum must be impressive, and he defined that as provably bug-free, available chain consensus, and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "intermediary minimization."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, we'll talk about the second half of the post in a moment, but first of all, like what did you make of of all these parts?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I I mean, you don't exit senior leadership because budget's tight. Uh like the folks running the ship. So, like you know, you exit like Solidity, which people complain about on a frequent"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "basis into their own organ. That's a budgetary concern. So, I would not associate budget cuts to like, you know, Tim and all those folks leaving. I think that's more like systematic health and so"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> are also people who've been around for like 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like they're they're they're they were the one They were the folks that were around like when we were all getting started"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "doing this stuff and they were in it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like we all believed the same thing and that's what motivated all of us to actually do anything cuz I wasn't getting paid [ __ ] for a really long time. Granted, I still don't get paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "[ __ ] But like, you know, >> [laughter] >> like it was it was tough for a while and if you were in it and if you got in around the same time I got in and the time Greg got in, like we built We"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "worked on ETH 2. We did a bunch of stuff. I wasn't getting paid. I was in it for the love of the game. Like you know, it's something that I believed in, something that I could rally behind and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think that's what made Ethereum so awesome at the beginning and I think now we're trying to like backpedal to try to put this crops thing front and center, which I agree with. You know, it's and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it's it doesn't have anything to do with the ethos necessarily. It just has to do with how they're running things. You they You can't run things the same way that they were run before. But I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that they've become such like a titan of influence that it's riskier to try to like take to try to take it in a different direction it needs to go because, you know, there's a lot of moving parts and now there's like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "a lot more at stake, you know, and they're probably just a little scared as well."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, okay. Now, in the second half of the post, this to me it's funny that to me this like made me raise my eyebrows. He said, \"The most high-value product of the Ethereum blockchain, financially"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "speaking, is ETH the asset. And it's just funny that, you know, when the creator of Ethereum says that the most high-value product of the blockchain is actually ETH, like the fact that that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "headlines headline news to me because he generally kind of like disdains talking about price and and all that. Like, anyway, um then the other thing he said was, um there are aspects of supporting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "ETH, the asset, necessary aspects even that are outside the scope of the EF."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "This is where we need other heroes, some of whom hold more ETH than the EF does, to step in and help. So, I kind of read that as almost like an implicit endorsement of the Dink Radd idea. I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "don't know if you agree with that, but like what what was your reaction to the statement about ETH, the asset?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I mean, I think it's about time. Like, yeah, hey, ETH has value and it presents a unique utility to the network. Like, duh. Like, should've said that [ __ ] 5 years ago, bro. Come on, get real. Like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "hey, actually, now that I think about it, ETH is pretty important. Like, >> It's like literally what proof of stake is based on. Like, if the value is low, then security's low. You don't build an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "economic engine and then say, \"Oh, you know what? Maybe economics are important.\" Like, it doesn't Like, did you not think about that 10 years ago?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "15 years ago? Like, you know, come on. I mean, I'm not going to like harp on the guy for saying what we've all been thinking. I'm just going to be like, this isn't news, people. Like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "let's go. Like, you know, like we need to focus on ETH as the monetary premium of the network. That is what creates value. That's it. That's what attracts new users. That's what creates security."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Most importantly, is like the security of the network is entirely dependent on ETH having value. That's how it works."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That's the innovation of blockchain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That's the innovation of crypto, you know? So, just seems a little weird that he's coming out and saying that stuff now, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Greg."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It was like his Wolf of Wall Street moment, you know, the way but it was just as Zach said a little bit late. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's It's in line with what's happening now. I mean, like they hired DeFi leads."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Great. You know, still very late. DeFi summer was, you know 6 years ago. Lambos ago. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Uh Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah. I've got I've got married and had kids, raised those kids like >> [laughter] >> You know, that's where I got my first gray hair. Um >> [laughter] >> But like, it's nice that it's happening."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's just late. Um but it's also maybe he's turning a page."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Maybe they're all turning a page, you know, it's They're serious competitors out there. I don't know. The way that I read that was like he's paying lip service. That's how it read to me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But so this leads me to my next topic, which I I tweeted about this like to my mind, I feel like ETH's cryptoeconomics are kind of broken right now. I think like so many people think that Ethereum"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is super valuable and I think that there's like a lot of people that want to fight for it and are um and and like all the I you know, um ideals and principles that Vitalik talks about and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "crops and all these things. I actually think so many people are really into that. But the fact of the matter is that Vitalik and the EF I I just want to say anyway He is the EF. Yeah, they haven't kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like um used So basically ETH Ether could be used as an amazing tool to push those crops principles. It could be used to, you know, get many people kind of into this community and ecosystem that values"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "those principles, which I think are actually really important. It's just that everyday people don't know that those principles are important. So, if you kind of do the BD and you do use the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "crypto economics to get people interested in ETH, then you can kind of like Trojan horse those principles to them. But, because everyday people don't give a [ __ ] about that, like by him just being like, \"I'm"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "going to, you know, do these principles and and like then sort of, you know, hope and and pray that people get interested.\" Like, I feel like that's not going to be as effective. So, I was curious, like do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you agree that ETH's crypto economics are broken? And and a second piece is I do feel like the foundation is plays a critical role in formulating those crypto economics. And I feel like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "because they're not focused on it, that's like another problem. Do Would you agree that the foundation is kind of a crucial player in formulating that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, 100%. No question. Yeah. I think If you try to change the curve that exist there, like I guarantee you're going to have the entire R&D team swoop in there and just be like, \"Uh,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "no.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like >> Wait, I'm sorry, the curve? Like the emissions curve? Or Yeah, of course. If you try and touch the economics, like there's no way they don't all just jump in on it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know what I mean? It's like you could have like a perfect, you know, by definition perfect, but there's nothing perfect. But, like I mean, I I swear like on the Haasu podcast, like the one from years and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "years and years ago, there was like discussions about changing the curve, but that was like 3 4 years ago."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like we still haven't changed the curve."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Well, now there's a EIP they're proposing that's going to reduce emissions, essentially cut it in half."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Which is going to be really great. Yeah, another contentious another contentious EIP. You ready?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, it's like the risk reward return on this just isn't worth worth it at all."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, that's sort of what David Hoffman was saying cuz I I also tweeted that like Ethereum's not interested in putting points up on the scoreboard and he said that yeah, that was basically"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "why he pieced out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> they should be interested. I mean, the fact that there's a scoreboard with points on it implies that you're playing on a field that cares about those things. If you're on a team that doesn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "care about winning, then go back to the playground."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> I feel like I'm on a sports podcast right now, but like >> [gasps] >> So, this actually leads perfectly to my next question, um which is all about kind of this coming era of or we're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we're we're really already in this era of competition, actually. And this morning Frank Chaparro tweeted quote, \"Ethereum's dominance is slipping. ETH is down about 30% year-to-date. The"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "ETH/BTC ratio just hit its lowest level since mid-2025 and blockchain revenue is steadily shifting towards Solana, Tron, and Hyperliquid. The competitive landscape is changing fast.\" And his tweet had a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "chart that showed exactly that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Actually, Juan Manuel, can you expand it out? Like if you click on the image."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, so like if you look it might be hard to see, but like basically, um the blue where it's you know, it's super dominant for a period, that is Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then when you look at the the you know, the recent I think it's like by quarters or something. Um basically, it's actually quite evenly spread. And so, um you know, I kind of get the feeling that like the EF or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Vitalik either is unaware that there's this massive competition going on and there's all these players that are vying, you know, to to get people on chain or they don't care or I don't know. What"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "what's your read on kind of like whether or not they seem to recognize that the competition is only just getting started. Yeah, I think they're totally oblivious. I mean, in previous cycles"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "we've always seen these like ETH killers come out. You remember like EOS and all that other all that other crap and it was always it was always kind of like vaporware, but you know, it was only a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "matter of time before somebody could come put together a car that looks cooler and is actually faster. You know, um I think that there's no competitive edge left because, you know, we we've"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "had such a winning streak of like being the [ __ ] and being cool and having the great tech and having all the good researchers and having the mind share that it kind of made everybody"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "kind of complicit and lazy, but I think, you know, they still don't really have their ear to the ground. Everybody like, you know, it's still uh it's still a pretty, you know, I don't know."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think they're definitely out of touch."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "But that's not to say that it's too late. Like also I I don't I'm not buying the whole like ETH is make ETH win again and blah blah. I still think ETH is doing well. I think that we're doing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "better than any other network out there and the whole market is just down because, you know, AI's kind of taking over and, you know, there's like a lot of other shiny objects out there that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that are going to attract like younger more like younger talent, you know, than than crypto. Crypto was like the hot [ __ ] for a minute, but now it's more like just a standard component in the tech"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "stack now as opposed to like a new thing that's out and AI is out and it's new and it's attracting a lot of talent and a lot of young people. I think that's just inevitable. I'm no longer young. I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "was young when I started working on this. Look at me now."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Still working on it. Haven't gotten smarter, I guess."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [snorts] >> Greg, what about you? What do you think about the EF and its either attitude toward or awareness of the competition?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I mean, I don't think they're like I don't think you can be truly bad oblivious."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "But when it comes down to what's actually happening, I believe that like a good chunk are just not paying attention to other stuff. Um you know, like a chain safe we like ran and built infrastructure and nodes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "for like most major blockchains and we would bring back ideas that looked great and it was always like uh yeah, don't know anything about that chain. And that's like a common pattern."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, whether they know the stats is one thing, but whether they care about what's happening from like you know, in that ecosystem specifically is like its own battle and truthfully"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "most of the time it's not."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um Yeah, like you would have to be like gross negligence to not be fully aware of what's going on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I'm sure that they're aware, but I think it's maybe like arrogance that's >> Well, yeah, they they it's the care."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Right? This is what I was going to say."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "We don't need to compete. We don't need to compete like you know, anyway, And and this is the arrogance that like these ETH killers come and go every cycle."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So in your ideal world, what would happen? Like either what would they do or then would there be this kind of like outside organization or or Zach, I don't know if you want to talk about what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you're doing with the Ethereum Community Foundation, but like ideally what would happen from this point forward?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, so the ECF has always just existed to act as like a forcing function to the EF. Like we we've shipped a bunch of stuff over the past year on a shoestring budget with a very minimal team focusing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "on Ethereum providing like some degree of funding, uh building, you know, public goods infrastructure that needs to be put out there and products that focus on consumers. So I think on a long"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like on a longer timeline if I think what would be ideal is Vitalik and the EF just quit the [ __ ] Like the bottom line is that like if you're in court and you know, there's a concept of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "jurisprudence and like you can say that like, you know, that they don't have control or whatever, one thing or another, but they're going to look at like they're not going to look at the statements."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They're going to look at the outcomes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They're going to look at what's actually in plot like actually enforced in in practice, right? As a as opposed to like, \"Oh, well, we don't do this thing or this is decentralized and we don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "have anything to do with that.\" But that's that's all that's all [ __ ] So, I think at the end of the day just say, \"Hey, look, we're controlling Ethereum. We control the network.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I mean, if if if Circle and Tether like so, if there is a contentious fork, which fork is which network is going to be like the the primary fork, like the primary chain? It's going to be whatever"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the Ethereum Foundation says because it's going to be whatever Circle and Tether, wherever they choose to redeem their assets. And they don't want to incur any liability by making any sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "of just like choices themselves. So, what they're going to do is they're going to defer to whatever the Ethereum Foundation, which is what Vitalik says at the end of the day. That's what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they're going to do. That's it. That's all that there is to it. You can say whatever you want. You can put out a bunch of crazy mangas. You can say that you're not in charge. It doesn't matter."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They're in charge. Admit that you're in charge. It's okay to be in charge."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Actually, I want you to be in charge."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Please be in charge. Take some responsibility. You gave birth to this child. Put the [ __ ] kid through school. You like, you know, divert like grow the [ __ ] up. Diversify your board."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Include people from across the industry that are smarter than you, that know how to run products, that know how to build companies, that have entrepreneurial experience, that's not just sitting and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "writing white papers for 20 years, and like dealing with all this academic masturbatory garbage. Like don't do that. Like think about someone other than yourself and your ego for once, and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "give other people the reins. Like you like it seemed everybody was super stoked when Tomash came in and that seemed like a step in the right direction, but then they drove him out and they like went back to their"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "infinite gardening. Like just make that board larger, make it public, make it actually transparent. We built a transparency dashboard that like tracks every single penny that we spend. If"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "somebody buys a paper clip, it's on this it's it's on this transparency report."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "We need to run Ethereum like we would a company. That's it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That's all there is to it. Whether you like it or not, whether whether companies are evil or whatever, like shut up. Just like grow up and like get a job. Like you know, that's all there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "is to it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So I think that's what would happen in a perfect world is everybody saying, \"All right, cool. We had our fun, we did our stuff.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like having a properly functioning organization is not contradictory to any of the crops like notions of crops at all because Greg and I have been running companies that bleed and die by these"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "principles for 10 years, over 10 years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And at no point did any of were any of those like principles um put like threatened. Like not never, right? So you can run an organization that's like clean and coherent and makes sense and is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "professional and has like a has like a unified face that allows institutions to feel comfortable without completely selling out to banks. Like none of us got into this to be like institutional"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "investors or accredited investors or like whatever. Like none of us That's not why we got into this. We got into it cuz we were dumb and young and had nothing better to do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "No, because there were like the crops principles, you know? Like that's what drove everybody and that's what we can still conform to. But let's grow up and actually run Ethereum like we would an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "organization that can scale because if we can't do that, then the crops principles are useless because it's going to show that none of these principles are actually applicable to real world business. And if they aren't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "applicable to real world business, then it doesn't then they have no real world value. So let's make them real. Let's like put our money where our mouth is and let's grow up and let's do it. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And whether that's the Ethereum Foundation taking responsibility for that and saying, \"Yeah, you're right. We need to do BD for the price. We need to do BD around like marketing and like we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "need to make sure that people understand the messaging.\" Like you like that's that's it. Or whether it's another organization, they're going to have to actually seek control and they're going"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to have to hand the mic to somebody else the same way that Vitalik did to David Hoffman. Doesn't matter who, as long as they have like their [ __ ] together and everybody understands what the what's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "necessary of the road map that's actually going to scale."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, I I agree that I think the Ethereum Foundation is not using Ether and its price as a tool in its toolkit and it could. I know you have to run at the top of the hour and it is the top of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the hour, but I just want to ask one last question cuz you mentioned the board and Vitalik did say that the Ethereum Foundation will be appointing new board members. Do either have like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "suggestions on how that process should go or who should be on it or even like the type of person that should be on it?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I don't think it should be like a DAO. I don't think it should be a decision that's made by everybody that holds ETH."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like you know, I'm not saying anything extreme. Treat it like a real company."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Bring in people that represent different sectors of Ethereum that can contribute their knowledge and their wisdom to understanding what's actually necessary."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Have a board like someone that represents standard media that understands PR. Like because like all the and if they don't want to do that, then they just need to shut up. Because like everything they're doing is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "creating PR crisis that just makes us all look bad. So either like do it or shut up. That's all they That's all you have to do. They could just shut up and play their little game and do their"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "little thing forever in perpetuity. As long as they just step out of the way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So it's either lead, follow, or get out of the way and they're not really choosing to do any of those things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Which is extremely frustrating and I know that I'm going off on a tangent and I'm rambling and I seem unhinged, but I've been doing this for over 10 years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like I've seen cycle and cycle and cycle and many people churn over and like you know, that's just what I think."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, so Zach, if you have to run, you can. Um I do want Greg to answer those last two questions that I asked. I can repeat them for you, Greg. All right, I'm going to drop. Thank you for having"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Thanks, Zach."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It was great chatting with you. Bye."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, Greg, um the two Well, I'll start with the first one, which was just like about the Frank Chaparro chart and whether or not you think that EF has an awareness about the competition."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Oh, yeah, like I was saying, like the it would be a fiduciary irresponsible for nobody to be not checking this. I mean, like everybody's on Twitter."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Everybody sees everything. Like they they they know it's they're aware that the competition is is there."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I think in many cases, being aware that there's competition and being aware of like what the technical edge and why people are making those decisions is probably not as prevalent until more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "recently."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like you know, I was saying before, like talking to people in the community and then there's talking to people in the community and then there's talking to people in the community that like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "also have users."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And historically, a lot of the time you'll find it's like, \"Oh, yeah, we spoke to so these people.\" And it's like no one's heard of them. Just like nobody's heard of Bastion. You know what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I mean? That's changing. It truly is."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "But like I mean, I would be shocked if they haven't. I just don't think they care."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I think a lot of people internally don't care."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Right? It's like, \"We have our mode, we have our DeFi, we've got our liquidity, you know, like\" Like my worry like the fact that they don't care means that they will lose out on the competition. That's what I worry"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like I So, I said this on I think on that Defiant podcast and I don't remember if I tweeted it or not, but like basically, I think that Crocs could win in the long term. But is it going to win in the short term? No, in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "my opinion. Because basically the way that I expressed it was like if I think of anybody that I know um like from who I know from any context that's not crypto and I think about the percentage"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of those people that are into crypto, it's basically zero. And so, you know, all these other competitors, they are going to where those people are and they're like you know, meeting them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "where they're at right now. And Ethereum is not doing that. It's kind of like staying in this sort of Cypherpunk, you know, kind of stance."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And it's just like, oh, no, no, no, but yeah, like, you know, whatever, 98% of people are not into this and so all the other chains and um platforms, they're going after the everyday person. And so,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "if Ethereum loses in the short-term, then will it win in the long-term? Like, possibly. But if it loses in the short-term, then it runs the risk of also not winning in the long-term and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that's what I'm concerned about."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, you have to like play to your like you have to play to like increase your like total luck surface. You know, you know, like that it's you're not going to like you know, there's getting winning takes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like a bunch of factors and a ton of it is luck. It's like and you need to increase that surface as much as you can."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um you know, crudely, like as Zach put it, it's like that document is just garbage."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like I would be happy with a cleaned up version and that would probably appeal to a lot more people more widely, you know, but you read that I it's hard to get through."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um and I think it's just like a lack of awareness that like pushes sometimes these decisions that you know, would cause Ethereum to lose."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't I don't think it will, uh truthfully. We've just got so much going for it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But you know, the price of it's a whole different problem, right? Yeah, I feel like if they fix the tokenomics and if they like deign to fight for Ethereum, not just like, you know, in this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "airy-fairy way put these principles out there, if they decide we're going to fight for these principles, then yeah, I think like Ethereum probably would win."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But, in the absence of those things, I'm a little bit like, okay, well, we'll see if the principles just magically attract people on their own."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um but okay, so that last question that I asked as Zach, um about, you know, the fact that they are actually adding people to the EF board, like how would you um you know, want to see that happen? You"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know, what process or like what types of people or if you want to name specific people you'd like to see on the board, like what are you thinking?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I mean, like systematically it has to we we need like grown-ups in the room."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, I I I you look at I mean, again, I can't find Bastien's info, but like you look at the rest of like the team there and like a lot of people don't have like big corporate management"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "things. Not that that's what they need, but you need to have somebody that like actually understands like businesses at scale to come in and say like, okay, there's like some things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "we have to change. We can adhere to the rules of course as much as we can, but like, you know, these basic principles of how we should run, you know, a 13 They have 13 bips of like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the total supply. Like that's a crazy amount still, even though it's like not a lot. Like it's still a lot of funds."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like they have to steward that. That's like priority number one. Priority number two is I would love to honestly for them to just like continue to cut more stuff out and lean on other"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "organizations to do it, like they already do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right? Like keep it lean, keep it focused on research. That's like what we need the most. We've got other teams that are extremely talented at different budget sizes that are independent that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "can really execute on a lot of this stuff."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Versus like the traditional model which is you know, you have team leads allocated budgets that are large and they kind of just throw it around and that's getting called back now anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And finally when it comes to the board, like I don't I really hope we don't have just like an internal family business style that we have, you know, it's just promote internally and just continue to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "promote internally."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's like there's no observability at that point. There's no like keeping them accountable."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like we should be seeing someone external come in, somebody that has like put their like neck on the line for the last like X amount of years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't know who that is necessarily and and you have to be careful not to king make in this process."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, but I would probably add like two or three beachheads from different, you know, areas. Maybe like one or two from DeFi or even board observer seats."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I don't know if those exist in Swiss foundation orgs, but you know, same concept. It's like I would take like I would take on like a Cayden and like a like a Stani, you know, like kind of polar opposites and similar at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the same time. Yeah, like people that have been around and basically like prop up the network."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, like truthfully like if Stani didn't like put together this like recovery fund, like I think it actually would have been like we would be in like super bear for the next like two years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right? Like those type of people would be good. And then maybe honestly take on somebody completely like different adjacent."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, but just has a good track record in like open source. Like I'm sure there's somebody at you know, S&P 500 that like has ran massive orgs and can suggest this is the way to go, but like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know, pick and choose your battles."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, yeah. In my book there was this moment where they tried to recruit um Brian Behlendorf from Hyperledger."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um but for various political reasons at that time, that was not really a viable option having to do with um the the current or the the then executive director of the EF."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But um Who was that again?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Oh no, I know Albert. Never mind. No, it was Ming. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Oh my goodness, throwback."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Wow."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> I forgot that that was a time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "That was >> that's my That's my point. It's like there's too much family business happening right now and it's like let's bring some people in from the rest of the world that have like been bleeding,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know, this whole initiative this whole time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um Yeah. Yeah, I basically feel like more transparency from the EF and more communication, those two things alone would go a long way, I think, for the community. Mhm. So."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Anyway, well, Greg, it was so great chatting with you and having Zach um and yeah, I know um this this conversation will be ongoing. Um it's sort of like been ongoing for a couple years now and hasn't really died,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so um yeah, we'll have to see how all this plays out and really like the changes that they're making at the EF, like how what those changes really look like because clearly um the reaction hasn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "been positive, so I wonder if they'll take the feedback, but maybe they won't."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "We'll see."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "We'll find out. I'm sure we'll I'm sure we'll get a tweet soon enough."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Awesome. Appreciate it. Thank you."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, thanks for joining and thanks everyone for joining this live stream."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "We'll catch you tomorrow."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is for informational and entertainment purposes only and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "disclosures, visit unchainedcrypto.com."
  }
]