[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "embedded and educated as to what is required to serve our our infrastructure goals and our validation mechanisms."
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Michaela?"
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Well, I would say it's more it's broader than that, right? It's not just like what do you need to do to keep your token up to keep the miners happy. It's like what do you need like this is the"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "beauty of incentive alignment is like we all need the token to go up. Every token holder."
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like the subnet owner, the miner, the validator, the person that's delegating."
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Everybody needs that token to be healthy and growing. Um you have 128 different options to pick from. I think we have different ways that we approach that. I really love what you said about keeping inspired."
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, I think for for us like we are building something that we believe is very valuable. And so I think mission is also really important because I think inevitably like things are changing very fast and you"
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "just you need a challenge that is important enough and difficult enough that I think you can work on it for long enough. Like Bitensor is not built for short-term extraction. In fact, we're constantly"
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "trying to engineer our way away from that. It's built for long-term value projects. So, I think I can't speak for every type of miner, but I can say that just broadly for the community in our case it's very"
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "important for us to communicate what are goals and what is our progress towards meeting them and have very active engagement and also like an educational component because we are also dealing with things that can be"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "highly technical and try to translate it as much as possible without compromising the rigor that is necessary to execute that vision."
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And your miners have to be very intelligent about the biology and that side of the network."
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> They don't need to know anything about it. They clearly did a lot of studying early on."
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I I mean I will say I think I got I want to do like a quote because I was very happy to meet one of my miners today, and he told me that he doesn't mine any other subnets but Nova anymore because he really likes"
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that it that it is inspiring and that it is a challenge and he needs to like actually think and come up with strategies and not just like spam."
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So, it it depends. If you're If you're the kind of miner that just wants to spam, then that you know, that's a different subnet."
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "But, I I like the the inspirational It just keeps you going longer."
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> Got it. Okay. Rob?"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> Yeah, so I maybe I I feel like I have a unique relationship with my miners just because we have a very liquid pool."
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um it's very deep, so it's very hard for anyone to move the price up or down."
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um and so, you know, given the the amount of capital expenditure required to, you know, have as many GPUs as we have, right? What we have to do is we have to just buy back the token in"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "order to offset the sell, right? So, by doing that, you know, we we can keep our subnet pretty stable. And as long as your subnet goes sideways, the holders actually make money through the yield."
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So, this is kind of the way I think about it, right? Is that if you can keep it flat, as long as it doesn't go down, you're you're doing okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "And so, cuz then the miners, you know, they can they make their bills, and if the miners make their bills, then they're happy, right? And then, you know, they get to eat. And then, you"
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "know, on our end, right? You know, if we can keep it sideways or going up slightly because we're we're returning the profits there."
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um you know, then that's also a pretty good way. But, that's more for a like an infrastructure kind of setup, you know?"
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yep."
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": ">> Yiannis?"
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I think in terms of how we view the alphanomics is really sound unit economics. I think a great part of it Tensor is at the beginning you can provide these minor emissions without"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "necessarily offsetting them, but obviously for the system to be sustainable in the future, you need positive unit economics. So, if for our case, if we're allocating $10 of our token for a lead that we ultimately need"
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "to put more than $10 in the system to cover that cost."
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "Um and the idea is that anyone can access these leads through the system, let's say $20 and that creates net value accrual over time as there's more demand for the commodity. And that's what I think will make any I mean"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "business system subnet sustainable is positive unit economics. Obviously, there is subnets that aren't necessarily selling a direct product where it's not as easy to quantify unit economics, but"
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "in our case that that's how we view it."
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "All right, next question. What is your go-to-market strategy? And by that I mean both for your products and your subnet token."
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Do you want me to go first, Danny?"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Please, please, Mark. Go ahead. Sorry, I know you're first in >> You want me to start with Gavin? We can do that."
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, we can do maybe on the biggie fair with the next one. We'll go for this one in a second."
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, Gavin, go ahead."
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Yeah, so obviously our tool is a go-to-market tool, which puts us in a pretty strong position to go to market with it. Uh luckily around the launch, we had a lot of inbound attention, so"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "we've just now started using our own tool for outbound."
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "Um in terms of how we view the subnet versus the platform, uh you know, obviously we're using our own leads to scale the platform, which is a user of the subnet, but we also have interest of other platforms that"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "want to use the direct subnet commodity."
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "In terms of that commodity, you know, we we changed our incentive mechanism a coup about a month ago and we're still refining it. Until we tap into other platforms, we want that really refined"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "and something that is really dependable for other platforms to start um being a distribution channel of the the subnet commodity. So, that's how we view both, but you know, we're we're also a tool"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "that we want to help other subnets go to market as well because a lot of amazing products being built here and we want to you know, help them accelerate their their distribution."
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> Um yeah, so our our strategy is just working one of our big strategies that we've been doing is is working with startups and and other subnets as well and supporting them."
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "It's almost kind of like like venture. I don't know how to explain it like applied private equity."
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Instead of like going in and like giving them money, you just give them compute and then that's super helpful for them and then we've been able to really kind of grow off that because like that kind"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "of pays it back, right? So like we did, you know, and so like for example on our on our platform you can pay us in alpha, you can pay us in tau, you can pay us in USDC."
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "You can pay us kind of and we also take dollars as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "But you know, this is not going to do you know, yeah. Basically you can pay us in any way as long as it's a you know, as we're able to get the money out, right? But you know, we we do sponsor some of these"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "projects and then we end up, you know, it kind of returns tenfold to us by doing that. So it's been that's kind of been a strategy that's been working out well for us."
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, actually you know, you got me with that one cuz Minos subnet 107, right? Which is the genomics one, one of the newer genomics ones. So they did something really"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "interesting where they took their miner and they made like standard issue miner image."
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They called the Minos VM and they put it on Targon, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, exactly."
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> So when I started trying to I was like, oh wow, they've already got it's all set up for me. I'll just go to Targon. I'll pay you some tau. And so you guys got me. You got some of my tau."
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> Yeah, so there we go."
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> I say go to market. Let's go."
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> So >> Well, we built the subnet for ourselves."
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So we are client zero. I think that that is like the the potentially most rewarding strategy that we have and the kind of asset that we're talking about. The more validation there is of it in the real world,"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the exponential the deal can be, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "I think you like it's not unusual to see a drug deal that's in the hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars, especially if it comes from a platform."
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "The biggest challenge there obviously is how long it takes to get there. So stacked on top of that and also just Okay, we have this amazing tool. The best way that we can validate that tool"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "is by developing an asset ourselves, but also there is so much more opportunity and potential in in it. So we're stacking on top of it screening as a service for either other biotech"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "companies that may not have AI platforms themselves. In fact, most don't."
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Research institutions that also need this service and are opening ourselves up and trying to scale through co-development partnerships that will allow us to have, you know, a a percent"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "of their revenue. All subject to negotiation on a case-to-case basis, but we want to be a gateway for everybody's drug discovery process."
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> It's much more binary for us. It works or it doesn't and it works and it's cheaper than your existing provider. And once that with each subnet, that iteration becomes much much uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "cleaner."
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh the most recent subnets we've launched even to surprise me at how clean out of the box they just I'm almost surprised that we've I've had to accelerate onboarding a full marketing"
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "best of team. Um and at that point my advice that I'm also giving to to new subnets is obviously BitTensor is a fantastic proving ground of a highly intellectual and critical uh peers who"
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "will let you know when it's working or not. We'll test your thing into the ground. We'll break it. But once you've passed that initial proving ground, your market uh doesn't need to have uh oh,"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "was this built on BitTensor? This is just people you're going to developers, uh consumers of your product, be it inference, be it compute, be it RPC and you are walking into a room and saying"
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this is what you're spending with your current provider. This service is as good if not better and significantly cheaper. Would you like to try and change? And that should be the easy"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sale."
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, absolutely."
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Okay, so we're at sort of the 10-minute mark here. I want to leave a little bit of time for questions. So, do we have any questions from the audience?"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "No."
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> This is the curse of having me on stage."
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I see a I see a hand over there."
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> There's a hand over there."
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You. Yes, you."
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> What's your advice to new subnets on >> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "I just thought >> Gavin."
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": ">> I think first before even getting a subnet, really determining can this be validated the work you're doing. If you're unable to validate it, you're really unable to have a subnet. You're just going to have"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "miners producing something that may look good, but you're really unable to determine if it is good. I'd say that the second piece of advice is once you actually get the subnet is really"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "communicate your vision well to you know, as we mentioned miners are stakeholders, but holders, validators, all of these people that they really need to understand your vision on where"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "your subnet will go. what is it solving?"
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "Is it solving a real pain point? Is there real demand for the service or product you're providing? Without those, the community will easily be not convicted in your product or service and"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "you're not going to have a good time."
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "So, really conveying your vision is is the the biggest thing that I think any new subnet owner should do right off the rip and continue to update the community as you make achievements, whether it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 5",
    "text": "within the subnet or on your go-to-market or really anything you're doing as a team."
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Does anyone have anything >> Yeah, I would say align your economic plan with your business plan and your launch strategy because patience is limited after initial speculation on an"
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "idea. And so, the sooner you prove that you're executing, even if it means delaying on an initial launch, because that balance of tow in versus tow out interest in your subnet, demand for your"
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "product, or proof that your research or your commodity or data has value is going to be judged immediately and not being prepared, and maybe pushing too too soon, uh can hurt you in in in in the long"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "run. For new subnets, it can be much harder. So, make sure you're ready on all aspects of the business."
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I would also add pick a problem that you can't just solve overnight. Like, there needs to be like a ongoing challenge that you're incentivizing them to solve. And and that can mean a lot of things depending"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "on what your use case is."
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> You got anything, Rob?"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> Yeah, don't listen to the haters."
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> That's like That's like the best advice I could give cuz >> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> All right. Uh I think Gordon, you had a question."
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The new conviction upgrade, opinions."
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Go on. I'll have it. I'll take it. Um so, I I see conviction as a layer which um provides a lot of potential for people to build upon. The initial You know, there's a reason why it's been rolled"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "out slowly as an an an element to essentially make sure that that those base functions of locking up to show conviction work with no other consequences at this stage. And I I do believe that it it gives essentially an"
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "avenue to subnet owners and operators to decide how maybe they want to incorporate those mechanisms into their subnet. You know, why can I not turn it into a loyalty scheme? Cuz at the"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "moment, people are sitting there thinking, \"Well, hold on. What is anyone other than the owner incentivized to lock?\" Or any It's uh you know um it what does it do more than that? And I"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think that responsibility should fall on subnet owners as well as providing uh mechanisms for governance at the chain level."
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But conviction is very different to the uh owner emissions. So owner emissions are what's coming into what we used to consider to be the owner cut. I now consider it to be the business treasury"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for the subnet. And it's alpha tokens, but I feel there's a lot more accountability for what you do with them now uh because of the way that it directly affects your your price and your your"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "future emissions, your towel flowing in and out."
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh conviction is just a a way of saying, \"Hey, look, uh we're prepared to let you know that a ex-proportion of this treasury are not something that we uh you know, we will be accountable if we"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "want to unlock it, if we want to do anything with it.\" Um again, I think the mechanism that's initially discussed at the moment, that's the only one that's been simulated is subnet king. So it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "essentially a way of dethroning a subnet owner with whom all of the participants of that subnet or a majority stakeholders have lost faith in."
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um which is an interesting kind of but it's not that's not live yet, but that's the proposed uh concept that's being simulated at the moment. But that doesn't change the 18% going to to the owner."
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Other opinions?"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Sorry, go ahead, Wyatt."
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> No, you don't. So, owners have 100% conviction immediately."
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um whereas anyone challenging has to build up that conviction over time. They have to uh put a substantial amount of Tao on the line for a long period of time. And if they were doing this"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "maliciously or just to you know, just to to mess with you. If I go, \"Hey Rob, I'm going to go and take a shitload of Tao and I'm going to take over your subnet.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um the reality is when people realize I'm going to take over a subnet, but I'm not him and I can't do what he does. All I've done is lock up a huge amount of assets that's going to plummet in value"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "while Rob says, \"Well, I'll register subnet five then in that case and take my team and my expertise and continue doing what I'm doing.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Any other opinions?"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I mean, I think a few things and one of them is like yes, I'm drawn to crypto because I like freedom, right? So, any anything that's locking it's like obviously there there can be like a knee-jerk reaction, but"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that's also because like I know that I I was never going to rug anyone and in fact, that's why we were very uh conscientious about how we do token sales, right? Like there was a psychological barrier already in my mind"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "of what would mean the end of the project and what would be unsustainable for the token itself and it's just qualifying it. And it's like, you know, how do you trust in a trustless"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "environment and also how do you trust subnet owners that might not be docs and I also believe that that is important and this is a way for them to signal something like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> No, anything else?"
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> I don't really know how it works, so I'll leave it to the experts."
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> All right, we have time for one more question. Does anyone have a question?"
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> I quickly touch on the conviction?"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": ">> Gavin."
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": ">> Um I think conviction in its current implementation is fine as an optional locking mechanism showing transparency to all your holders on, you know, really how convicted you are. I do think the"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "takeover mechanism isn't really optimal at least in the idea that the owner Alpha has the same weight. I think that only getting 18% you never technically have control of that subnet"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "even if you never were to sell."
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "Obviously assuming takeover is implemented, assuming it has the same weight, I think adding more complexity it's it's going to create more unintended problems and the way to potentially solve that would"
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "be adding extra weight for the owner staked Alpha that they stake themselves maybe a 5x multiple some multiple that allows an owner that actually never sells to maintain ownership because it"
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "does make a bit denser potentially less attractive to build on if you are always at the whim of of other participants. I do think that overall in its current implementation there's really no"
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "downsides, but that is a concern around the the takeover aspect."
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> So a misconception is that only your owner emissions count to your stake. If Mark invests in your subnet and he's prepared to show conviction, anyone can show conviction in your key. So me as an"
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "investor if I say, \"Hey, I'm going to hold I know I'm holding your token for a long period of time and I'm happy to announce if I do wish to sell, my conviction goes to you, too.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I just it's obviously you're depending on your investors and like if you just look at it compared to the equity world like you obviously own all your company you start to sell it up in"
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "pieces and in BitTensor I think you should at least have control of that asset assuming you're not just selling it, you know, freely on the market and that that is my concern cuz yeah, I I"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "mean obviously, you know, we love all of our holders and we're not concerned on our basis. I think it's just as a broad concern of looking at do I want to build on BitTensor do I want to try and do it"
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "myself spin up you know, my own project."
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "I think we want to really show that it's a durable place to build and attractive place to build Um, cuz you know, we're seeing private companies raise crazy amounts of money and they are you're"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "retaining a majority control where with a subnet obviously you retain a minority control of the asset, but I think if you have some extra voting rights yourself to maintain ownership, I do think it can"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "make it best of both worlds where you're not owning a majority of the token, which I do agree with at a base level only owning a minority providing more distribution of your token, but um, I do"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 6",
    "text": "think that you should have some sound ownership assuming you're not just selling all your tokens and giving up that ownership."
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> for one more or no?"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Okay, one more."
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Gentleman over here."
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> If someone is either white labeling your your product, um, are they or or distributing it? Are they then not a a consumer of that commodity? Um, and any proof of value and demand for your"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "commodity as a subnet it is it's what you'll aspire to and then it's up to you as to how you structure your business as to how that's monetized or how that's incentivized uh, on on your business"
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "structure. It doesn't necessarily change the incentivized production of that commodity at a subnet level."
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, it's marketing and biz dev and it's very specific to your your subnet."
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh, similar commodities share similar views on this, but it it yeah, I would say it's a marketing and biz dev for your specific >> Rob just made that."
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> No, yeah, and and I in terms of of doing partnerships, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Last August, it kind of happened more on the engineering side where the engineering team had reached out to Intel because to to do P-Cat. It's a it's the way like basically Intel verifies that that's like an authentic"
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "genuine Intel Xeon chip."
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "And so from that they wrote a white paper together and we had a tweet this tweet like it was the most viral tweet I've ever seen in my life."
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "I almost didn't even publish it cuz I was like, oh, no one's going to read this. It's like a technical report, but I totally think that that's like a great way where there's been like cross"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "collaboration where we're actually using their technology, but they're also promoting the use of the technology. So I think that there's a lot of opportunities for subnets to do that as"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "well if they're incorporating other companies' technologies and then amplifying each other based off that."
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Okay, that's it. No need Jose yelling at me. Thank you."
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Hey."
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> [applause] >> Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> [applause] >> Awesome."
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> Congrats."
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> All right, take your microphone home."
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "You bring it tomorrow."
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We have one more panel before this room is transformed into a party."
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "You couldn't bring a drink before, but the drinks will be here when you get back."
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "So if if you guys can flip the slides, please."
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "The next speakers are here to talk about subnets as an asset class."
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "And I think we're all we're all ready to close the evening, but we have one more panel."
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "If we can invite to the stage Frank, Evan."
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "James, if you find your seat. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Sit where they can identify you. There you go."
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Yes."
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "All right."
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Here you go. You get a free microphone."
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "And Frank is all the way down."
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "You are."
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "All right, everybody."
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We have some seats in the front."
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We have three seats in the front here."
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We have a short panel."
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "If we can reset the timer."
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We have four seats in the front."
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "You want to learn all about subnets as an asset class."
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "That's That's your spot."
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "All right."
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "For those standing in the back, we have many more seats here in the second and third row."
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "And ready to go, Mike."
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "All yours."
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "All right, everybody."
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Yeah, there we go."
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Welcome everybody and thanks for thanks for sticking around."
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "My name is Mike Grahame, it's co-founder of General Tensor. However, today I'm Victor Taxera."
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "My business partner decided to have a baby a couple of days before the conference and so today I am filling in."
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "I'm here with a distinguished panel of gentlemen probably within the BitTensor ecosystem do not need any introduction, but for anybody that's that's outside the ecosystem currently, I'd like to maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "allow you guys to give your own introductions and talk a little bit about what you do."
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> I am Sam, co-founder of DSP Fund. We're the first regulated hedge fund 100% in alpha and BitTensor. Uh we have a a London-listed PLC that's focusing on Astrid Subnet 127, and then we have like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "subnet VC firm. So."
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Uh I'm James Aldridge. I help run Tao Synergies. We're listed on the Nasdaq as Tao X. We own a lot of Tao. I think we're probably the largest publicly listed Tao holding company."
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Pete who runs Oblong is in the audience."
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we are, and happy to be here."
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Uh my name is Evan Malanga. I'm the chief revenue officer at Yuma, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Digital Currency Group."
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "Um we do a variety of things. We run a validator. We run a subnet accelerator, and we also have an an asset management business."
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Uh my name is Frank Schuil. I'm the founder and CEO of Safello Group AB. We are listed on Nasdaq First North as a largest exchange in the Nordics. We also launched a stake Tao ETP that is"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "now listed on SIX, Nasdaq, and as of today on Euronext Paris."
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Beautiful."
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Well, all of the gentlemen on stage have been kind of prolific advocates of of BitTensor both in in private, but also, you know, publicly. And I guess the first question I want to ask, bit tongue"
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "in cheek, is, you know, we call this in the BitTensor parlance Tao pilling. And so, who is the most prolific person that you have Tao pilled?"
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Either firm, person, could be girlfriend, your mom."
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Preferably, you know, a big financial institution that you guys have brought into the ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Maybe it wasn't me, but did Barry Tao pill you?"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> I'm afraid so. No, no, no, it was actually >> [laughter] >> But mostly, yes, it was the first conference where you brought the whole ecosystem, and it was a game-changer."
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Okay, so we we Tao pilled Frank."
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> [laughter] [snorts] >> Fair enough. If I If If you guys want to pass, feel free."
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Um James, I'll I'll I'll >> I'm going to go with uh quantity rather than quality here. So, well, maybe they're both. So, I have a newsletter on crypto with about 200,000 subscribers."
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "We've been recommending Tao since 2023."
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "And uh uh more recently, we've been recommending specific subnets to the subscribers, and I know that's made a lot of subnets uh fairly happy. And also, we run the Tao Daily, which is"
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "almost like the CoinDesk of of Tao. And I think through that, we've we've educated a lot of people to be to be holders or or satisfied with holding Tao or the subnet. So, so I feel I feel"
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "happy about the quantity rather than necessarily the one single biggest person."
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Fair enough. And that's actually a really good segue into the next question. So, you've been a prolific writer on kind of technological revolution since the beginnings of the internet. Um I think you've written 18"
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "books now on entrepreneurship and >> Most of them really bad. Don't read most."
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> technology and whatnot. Um how do you see the current intelligence revolution that is currently underway? And how does it compare and contrast to some of the other technolo- technological"
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "revolutions that you've covered um maybe since since the internet? And how does Bittensor really fit into that intelligence revolution?"
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Yeah, that's a that's a great question because there's two arguments I see when I talk to Wall Street people, for instance, or let's say institutional investors. One is, how can decentralized AI ever really"
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "compete with centralized AI? Like Anthropic just raised $65 billion."
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "How are you going to compete with that with, you know, your little Tao thing?"
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "And the other question people ask is, wait a second. Everybody's saying this Tao is like an ETF of AI startups, but these subnet tokens, they're not equity, right? They don't They don't have the same, you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "token holders don't have the same protections that shareholders have of a company. What is it Do you really have a the right to future cash flows the way mythically, you know, shares of a stock"
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "do? And these are all good questions."
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "So, I'll I'll just I think you're asking more on the centralized versus decentralized part."
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "We've seen it time and time again, sent- decentralized technology starts off smaller and ends up being bigger than centralized technology. Great example being the internet. So, okay, let's just"
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "compare the internet to media. At first, the media companies I I remember in 1994, I worked at HBO, a big in Time Warner, a big media company."
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "I would say, \"Hey, we really need to look at this World Wide Web thing that's happening.\" And they would literally tell me, \"James, sit in your cubicle."
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Let the cable guys deal with this question. Like, you don't really know what you're talking about.\" And so, they all pooh-poohed the internet. It was just this academics, decentralized, you"
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "know, emailing and stuff. But, it turns out Where do you all get your news now?"
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Basically, the internet. Where do you get your media now? Basically, the internet. The The internet in so many ways. That's one example of one of the centralized industries that was crushed"
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "by the decentralizing internet. You know, another great example is operating systems where, you know, everybody had their own operating system, and then there was this weird little"
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "decentralized thing called Linux. And now Linux is at the core of of Windows, Mac, and just about every other operating system. So, eventually, decentralized catches up. Anthropic can't raise $100 billion every month,"
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "and they're going to need to do that to just keep up as, you know, as Targon gets bigger, as Shoots gets bigger."
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "There can't be competition ultimately to decentralize. So, that's why this is such a good opportunity now."
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Yeah, it's interesting and almost paradoxically, like we we see most of the US labs building centralized closed-source AI, and then we have most of the Chinese companies building"
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "open-source dec- decentralized, uh, you know, models, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Well, and and so, I didn't I know everyone wants to to talk about, you know, look at look at look at xAI. I'm going to stop everyone from talking."
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Here we go."
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Look look look at XAI right now. Elon's basically admitted, \"Well, I guess Grok was a mistake. We built it wrong.\" And so, what should Elon do now? He could either like hire all new talent and"
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "start from scratch trying to build something equivalent to Anthropic or or OpenAI has, but or he can say, \"Look, we've got a million GPUs in our infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Have at it. We'll put them all up on a Tao subnet. Have at it and make the best AI model.\" Somebody's eventually going to make that decision. So, and that will result in a better model than Anthropic"
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "and and ChatGPT."
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Anybody else care to opine?"
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Well, the Chinese thing is asymmetric warfare. They they say they see the the US or the West pouring every penny into computer and AI, and the Chinese are going, \"Well, we can just make all of"
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "that investment money completely redundant and just like open-source it.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "It's just another economic cold war."
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Absolutely. Well, we are here to talk about subnets as an asset class. I think we're getting a little bit off track, but um you know, BitTensor is such a you know, in a way a complicated ecosystem. You"
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "ask five different people, \"What is BitTensor?\" You're going to going to probably get five different answers."
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Mark Jeffries at the beginning of the last presentation gave a very good overview, but Evan, when you're speaking to institutional investors, how do you pitch BitTensor as well as how do you pitch subnets?"
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Yeah, it's a good question. Um BitTensor unfortunately sits in the center of this Venn diagram that's really difficult."
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "It's both AI and it's crypto, and your crypto audience has a bunch of questions, and your AI audience doesn't understand crypto, and so you have to have kind of like two narratives or two"
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "talk tracks."
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "Um And from the AI side, it's more of like we were just basically just talking about this. It's more of like the religious angle of like do you want OpenAI and Anthropic to can control"
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "this? Yes or no? And then you can kind of go down the rabbit hole from there."
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "And and you know, more often than not when you talk to people, they're like, \"Okay, yeah. And this guy just like write a poem about how he was like a deity or a god or something. Like okay,"
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "like we need other businesses out there building this, but on the crypto side, um I think the one thing that it is is not well understood, but I think Mark did a good job on the last panel kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "talking about the rehypothecation, but I I want to like dive into that a little bit more is that most protocols, like if you look at Ethereum, etc., Solana, like all the projects that are building on"
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "top of that, none of that value flows back. Um whereas with with Tao the subnets, it does flow back. Like that the the subnets tokens are denominated in Tao, the pools are denominated in"
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "Tao, and so you see this value kind of accrue back into the protocol. And and a perfect example that I think is topical is like Polymarket, right? So, they're, you know, Polymarket's going up into the"
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "right, prediction markets are going up into the right, but it's built on Polygon, and I probably one of the most underperforming tokens in the market over the last whatever 2 years or"
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "something. Um and so that blockchain has captured zero of that value, whereas BitTensor is the complete opposite of that, and that is something that crypto investors really understand and resonate"
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "with."
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Yeah, it's interesting. I I think um you know, everybody on stage here represents investment vehicles, both public and private. Um Frank, you I believe were the first to launch a"
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "publicly traded ETP for for Tao. Now, that was not your initial business. Like you you you ran an exchange, so how did you get into the BitTensor ecosystem?"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "What gave you so much conviction? Uh and and why did you choose to launch a publicly traded company?"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Well, obviously we established that Bear just said, \"Hey, look at BitTensor.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> No pun intended."
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Well, uh yeah, I got in a little bit before that."
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Some some, you know, techie obviously pointed out, \"Hey, I I was talking about artificial intelligence, which is a subject I've been following for a long time.\" And I was like, \"Hey, have you"
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "looked at decentralized AI?\" And it was on stage like this and I did not and then I felt embarrassed because you know, I was the CEO of a crypto exchange. And I should know."
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "So that's where I I dove in personally and then obviously I tried to bring that conviction to the company which was initially by taking our long-term crypto holdings from Bitcoin into"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Tao which was you know, one one step and then it's like all right, let's do more and that became Wood Tao which is a little bit of competitor to Tao stats with an analytics dashboard which gave"
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "me an opportunity to play around with AI first development which is fun."
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "And then we said okay, but now we actually want to bring this this you know, token to sort of an institutional market and we were not the first one because some people beat us to the punch on when"
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "we announced that we were going to do it but only on a non-staked version. So we do the staked version which is interesting for institutional investors because you get the yield back on on the"
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "the ETP structure which obviously offsets the cost but for us it was a means to just create something easy and that you know, the the average institutional investor can just understand and"
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "in our market Sweden it's the sort of first market where the first Bitcoin ETPs came to market with ETP provider that became CoinShares now and it's one of the largest volumes in ETPs."
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "So it was a very logical choice to bring this token to market in that way. So yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Simple."
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Awesome. Well you guys all speak to institutional investors every single day."
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Where do you think investors fall short?"
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Like where do they not understand BitTensor? Where is their level of understanding today? Like are they BitTensor curious?"
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Are they like how do I get exposure? Do they want subnet exposure directly?"
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Where are we in this kind of like growth curve?"
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "A question for everybody."
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> I'll I'll jump in. I'd say the one thing that I've noticed cuz called from Proof of Talk last year is the subnets can explain their businesses like the the the presentations we had whatever like"
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "an hour ago, fantastic. Like they're actually talking about real problems, real value propositions. It's not just Bittensor first and this is why I'm building on Bittensor. It's here's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "business and I just so happen to use this mechanism to solve my problem."
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "And I think that has really started to change amongst the subnet community."
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Also people have yardsticks with with with anything. So when you're chatting with an institutional person or an entity, they go, oh, so they they first compare you to other crypto projects or"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "other AI projects out there. And like I've always thought that Bittensor is a three-lane thing where AI with crypto and we're we're straddling into the VC world as well. Um and like using the word crypto is the is"
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "like garlic. You should never ever I never use the word crypto cuz all we have is, you know, Yuma as the the the efficient resource allocation protocol."
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "That that's all we need blockchain for, really. But we are we're we're yeah, we're AI not crypto. So and then market cap is the other metric which everyone always goes, oh, this subnet versus this crypto project over"
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "there. Subnet is like the worst metric in in detail because I mean, for like the first 64 subnets naturally going to have a high market cap than a brand new one."
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Right, so."
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> I think I think the biggest problem Wall Street investors have is the problem Evan mentioned, which is that our subnet What are subnet What gives subnet tokens or any crypto tokens"
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "value? He mentioned Polygon as an example where Polygon owners of that token don't really benefit from the success of that business. Chainlink has quadrupled their business this past year and the tokens"
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "down 80% because Chainlink does not share revenues with token holders at this point. It's most It's mostly a meme coin, and a lot of crypto tokens are like that. So, you need to have either"
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "utility value where there's a reason you're owning the token. So, Bitcoin, the reason own token initially was to make transactions. Now, it might be the utility is as a safe haven. By the way,"
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Tao has enormous utility. You You buy subnets with Tao. You can't buy a subnet token without Tao. So, there's enormous utility. Like for instance, if you want to increase demand for Tao, just double"
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "the number of possible subnets. Right now, you'd increase immediately the demand for Tao. So, Tao has enormous utility. But, the other thing what Wall Street's really looking for is, well, is"
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "there is this Do the subnet tokens represent equity? Is this a claim on future cash flows? If the If the subnet gets sold, this is a question. If a subnet gets sold, do the subnet holders"
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "benefit? You know, that's the questions they're asking. I'm not saying whether those are good questions or bad. That's the level of understanding. And so so from a subnet owner's point of view, and"
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "I appreciate this being addressed in the in Mark's panel and and a lot of things that were discussed. But, from a subnet owner's point of view, they have to answer these two questions, which is how"
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "am I going to explain that my subnet token has value."
  },
  {
    "i": 323,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "So, for instance, it was said on the panel, okay, if I don't keep the subnet token price high, then I might lose miners, which makes me lose my product."
  },
  {
    "i": 324,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "But, okay, maybe it doesn't have to be going up all the time. It just has to be high enough to keep all the miners. So again, how do you explain it to an investor? Well, you could say, as as"
  },
  {
    "i": 325,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "many subnets do, I'm going to take all my revenues and I'm going to buy back tokens. So, since there's a six fixed supply of tokens, if if there's anticipation that I'm going to have"
  },
  {
    "i": 326,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "great and increasing revenues in the future, better to buy my subnet token now before they buy back all the subnets. You know, buy while it's still cheap and eventually gets more expensive. Other subnets have utility."
  },
  {
    "i": 327,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Like Hippias, it was mentioned, that you got to stake Hippias tokens to be able to be a miner. So, so that's great utility. But, this is a really key important part. And by the way, a lot of"
  },
  {
    "i": 328,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "subnet owners don't realize this. I've had many discussions, including about 6 or 7 months ago with Sam Dare, where he didn't seem to realize that he needs to keep his subnet token value higher in"
  },
  {
    "i": 329,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "order for the sustainability of his subnet. So, he wasn't making that connection. And a lot of subnet owners I've had that discussion with. So, you if you're investing in a subnet, you really need"
  },
  {
    "i": 330,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "to make sure how are they understanding how the subnet token holders benefit. Do Do they have a real rational reason what Like, if they do, you know, if Score does a big deal for instance with some"
  },
  {
    "i": 331,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "major Fortune 500 company, how are the How are the subnet token holders contributing, you know, participating in the success of Score?"
  },
  {
    "i": 332,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "I'm not I'm I'm just using that as an example. I'm not I'm Score does great."
  },
  {
    "i": 333,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "So, but I'm just using that as an example. You have to ask those questions if you're an investor."
  },
  {
    "i": 334,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> I I think it's interesting cuz it it's it's it's a quite pernicious problem, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 335,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "You have equity and you have token holders. And your objective is to figure out how value can flow to both. And you made a point about Anthropic and a lot of these centralized AI companies"
  },
  {
    "i": 336,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "raising hundreds of millions, billions of dollars. And yet, we have subnets that are building state-of-the-art digital digital commodities within their own niche. And yet, I think one of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 337,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "largest rounds we've seen has been Targon at 10 million bucks, right? Great for them, but does it help move the needle in the competition against centralized companies? How do we square"
  },
  {
    "i": 338,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "that circle? How And Frank, feel free."
  },
  {
    "i": 339,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Well, what I was going to say, the questions I'm getting when I >> [laughter] >> sit with institutional investors is more, \"What is this subnet?\" You know, it's way more basic and way simpler than"
  },
  {
    "i": 340,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "that. Maybe it's the European market versus the the US market that's more sophisticated. I don't know, but it's similar to the early days of Bitcoin is like, why Bitcoin and what does it"
  },
  {
    "i": 341,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "really do? Uh so I I you know, it's basic and it's it's important to do that educational part to institutional investors and the message for me is more comparing it to the centralized AI market, not necessarily"
  },
  {
    "i": 342,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "talking about crypto, even though it's very tempting, but it may mainly confuses people in the conversation that I'm having. And then it's can be seen or you know, positioned as a you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 343,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "hedge against centralized AI. So you have a valuation of 950 billion, I think Anthropic in the latest. Okay, here is a protocol that can be your asymmetrical bet against the the centralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 344,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "uh AI world that is, you know, by some people's measure overvalued, but here you go. You've seen what can happen with DeepSeek, you can see what happens with Open Claw. So here you have an"
  },
  {
    "i": 345,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "instrument that at least has a position, should have a position in your diversified portfolio and it has this tremendous upside. The the most sophisticated part that I've seen within"
  },
  {
    "i": 346,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "the sort of the institutional market is where they segment the centralized AI market, but anything decentralized is not even part of that, you know, kind of assessment. So it's like, okay, can we"
  },
  {
    "i": 347,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "dis can we position this into sort of that that this the segmentation of the centralized AI market where, you know, they put it in. That's kind of what we're seeing in the market."
  },
  {
    "i": 348,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Well, talking about segmentation of the market, I think Yuma, you've done a great job of building indices for subnet exposure, right? So while these are not publicly available, they're they're"
  },
  {
    "i": 349,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "available to private, you know, accredited investors. And so how does that change the calculus for them? Like they might want, you know, broad spectrum TAO exposure, maybe they want a"
  },
  {
    "i": 350,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "little bit higher beta to get into a specific sub sector of of of subnets."
  },
  {
    "i": 351,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Does that change the conversation, the fact that they don't have to, you know, hit pick a specific subnet, but they can and I want general exposure?"
  },
  {
    "i": 352,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Yeah, so so there's there's a few layers here. I think I think the first one is that when dynamic Tao launched in February of last year, we and and many other industry you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 353,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "ecosystem participants realized like all right, this there's very little infrastructure uh you know, outside of a few block explorers. There's very little data."
  },
  {
    "i": 354,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "We couldn't even track all 128 you know, at the time 64 but going to 128 subnets."
  },
  {
    "i": 355,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "So there there was a lot of just of like our own like we are our own customer need to figure out how do we manage our own balance sheet. We need these types of tools and capabilities. And then once"
  },
  {
    "i": 356,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "we kind of had figured out okay, we can do some rebalancing. We can create my more rules-based sort of systematic investing product is okay, well, how do you benchmark that? So we launched the Yuma"
  },
  {
    "i": 357,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "composite index, which is effectively all 128 subnets in the ecosystem. So like how do you how do you benchmark against these things, which is typical what you see in traditional finance,"
  },
  {
    "i": 358,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "right? You've got major indices businesses massive investment products that they benchmark against these things. So it's just kind of extrapolating what already exists that is known and"
  },
  {
    "i": 359,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "familiar to investors and putting it into this world that just didn't have that infrastructure yet was really the the nexus of it."
  },
  {
    "i": 360,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "And then I guess to to conclude with the second part of your question is so our first two products we launched were subnet only products."
  },
  {
    "i": 361,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "One was more of a top 10. The other one was the whole market."
  },
  {
    "i": 362,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "Both rebalancing on a regular basis market cap weighted effectively."
  },
  {
    "i": 363,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "But what we realized is a lot of investors don't even own Tao. So you to go from dollars or or whatever currency you have into subnets was a leap. So we've launched or or we have yet to"
  },
  {
    "i": 364,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "launch but announced last month a third product that will kind of combine both."
  },
  {
    "i": 365,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "But you know, it's it's it's still a lot of education around what Frank was saying is just kind of like all right."
  },
  {
    "i": 366,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "So now I kind of have a vague understanding of a subnet. Show me some examples of some good ones. And thankfully we've got you know, some great subnets doing some great things."
  },
  {
    "i": 367,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "We can point to some good case studies."
  },
  {
    "i": 368,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Amazing."
  },
  {
    "i": 369,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Well, James, you so humbly pointed out at the beginning of the presentation that you have the largest at in in BitTensor."
  },
  {
    "i": 370,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "But, you know, I'm curious because the >> A lot of TAO."
  },
  {
    "i": 371,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> We own a lot."
  },
  {
    "i": 372,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> big owner."
  },
  {
    "i": 373,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> We own more than you."
  },
  {
    "i": 374,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Um now, I'm curious because we've seen this like tidal wave of digital asset treasuries come to market, not just for BitTensor, but for all different chains."
  },
  {
    "i": 375,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Um how do you stand out? How do how do you make sure that X or that TAO X is visible and differentiated from the rest of the products in the market?"
  },
  {
    "i": 376,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> That's a great question because there was something like a hundred DATs uh minted over the last year. Public companies that shut down their little toy companies and said, \"Oh, we're going"
  },
  {
    "i": 377,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "to be now in in a a $500 million injective DAT.\" And nobody know what's injective, but then the stock would go up for a little while. And you know, there's a couple of there's a couple of issues. One is a lot of those"
  },
  {
    "i": 378,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "public companies were just benefiting the banks that raised that initial money. Nobody else benefited. Investors got disillusioned and just in the there wasn't real leadership at those"
  },
  {
    "i": 379,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "companies and they just fell apart. And then in addition, the crypto market has been bottoming out since since October 10th."
  },
  {
    "i": 380,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "The other thing is a lot of these public companies you know, started using leverage and different pieces of their capital structure in order to, you know, buy more Telegram or injective or polygon or"
  },
  {
    "i": 381,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "whatever it was. And, you know, when crypto went down, now their leverage is hurting them. So so shareholders are selling and a lot of these companies trade below NAV. But, I think with TAO X"
  },
  {
    "i": 382,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "from the beginning, we didn't want to just be a digital asset treasury for for TAO. We wanted to be we wanted to explain to the universe why BitTensor TAO is essentially the greatest"
  },
  {
    "i": 383,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "invention of mankind. And you know, as was said in an earlier session, this is like a digital represent representation of the free markets. It's not just an AI crypto. It's not just a crypto. It's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 384,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "real pure platform for free markets, you know, where where, you know, incentives and meritocracy is rewarded and there's less regulation and so on. So, so at Tao actually we wanted to be able to say,"
  },
  {
    "i": 385,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "yes, we own Tao, but also we we are educating the world on this. So, we started the Tao Daily, which again is like the the CoinDesk of of of Tao. And by the way, it was it was Barry it was a"
  },
  {
    "i": 386,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "lunch with Evan and Barry. Barry was like, why don't you start the CoinDesk of Tao? So, I said, okay, and did it."
  },
  {
    "i": 387,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "And then and then also like right now most recently I haven't I've just been playing around with it, but I created a front end for Bittensor. If you go to blue.tao.ai, this is like a ChatGPT-like interface"
  },
  {
    "i": 388,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "into shoots uh text inference and text to image. And there's also an interface into Bitmind for AI deepfake detection. There's an interface into D search for for searching social media. So, I wanted I wanted to create a"
  },
  {
    "i": 389,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "bunch of tools to basically we you know, I started doing a podcast, the Tao pod about Tao and everybody here's got a podcast, but all of this education is We got one at the airport in Paris."
  },
  {
    "i": 390,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> This is much better."
  },
  {
    "i": 391,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> We I don't have a podcast. It's okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 392,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> we >> Me neither."
  },
  {
    "i": 393,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> A lot a lot of what separates us from from the other DATs in general, if not the Tao DATs, is we're we're educating and we're doing things other than just buying Tao. And you have to do that. You have to"
  },
  {
    "i": 394,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "participate in your ecosystem. I'm here."
  },
  {
    "i": 395,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Amen."
  },
  {
    "i": 396,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> You heard it here first. Bittensor is the great single greatest invention in human history. Quote it, tweet it, clip it."
  },
  {
    "i": 397,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> I'm proud of it."
  },
  {
    "i": 398,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> James. Amen."
  },
  {
    "i": 399,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> [applause] >> I believe it. I believe it too."
  },
  {
    "i": 400,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Um Actually, I want to come to you in a second, but you raised a good point about Blue Tao and I think it's actually a really big um like advent for the ecosystem because what BitTensor does at its core is we"
  },
  {
    "i": 401,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "produce digital commodities extremely efficiently, um extremely inexpensively. Whatever you're trying to optimize for, more than likely you can do it better in a decentralized environment through"
  },
  {
    "i": 402,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "BitTensor."
  },
  {
    "i": 403,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Um because you have this constant Darwinistic competition where miners are always competing to try and build the best, fastest, cheapest, lowest latency product, right? And what a lot of people"
  },
  {
    "i": 404,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "get caught up on is they don't have the front-end interface that they can just look and see this is what BitTensor does. Because at the end of the day, the outputs are APIs. And if you're not in the AI space,"
  },
  {
    "i": 405,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "all of that is just jargon. And so what Blue Tao is is kind of pulling together all of these digital commodities that are being produced on BitTensor to create like kind of a a front-end. And I"
  },
  {
    "i": 406,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "think maybe that is one thing that we could all do as an ecosystem is build more beautiful products uh that people can touch, feel, play with um because that's how you get like the the people"
  },
  {
    "i": 407,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "that aren't in this room into BitTensor, no?"
  },
  {
    "i": 408,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Well, the issue a little bit though is that there's a lot of the niche AI where BitTensor is so successful is on B2B applications. Like for instance, the average consumer doesn't need to know"
  },
  {
    "i": 409,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "what the best molecule is for antidepression. By the way, if Michael is here, I want to be in the clinical trials for that one. So but there's not really a consumer interface to consumer front-end for a lot of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 410,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "subnets, but the ones where there is, that's our best marketing right now for BitTensor is hey, show off what you have."
  },
  {
    "i": 411,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Amen."
  },
  {
    "i": 412,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Yeah, we got a we got a great body, terrible face in the middle."
  },
  {
    "i": 413,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> We're we're really good at the back end, but we we need better front end."
  },
  {
    "i": 414,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Good at the back end, too."
  },
  {
    "i": 415,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Um Siam, you have two vehicles. Uh one of them public, one of them private. Um so you have Astrid on the public on the um on the Aquus exchange, and then you have DSV fund, which is I believe prop"
  },
  {
    "i": 416,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "capital, or have you have invested >> actually."
  },
  {
    "i": 417,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Okay. So let's talk a little bit about that."
  },
  {
    "i": 418,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> So DSV is a liquid hedge fund. So we we have to be relatively liquid. Like we accidentally fell into a bit of a trap of having most of our portfolio pretty locked up. So after proof of talk, Mark"
  },
  {
    "i": 419,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "and I >> Who's Mark?"
  },
  {
    "i": 420,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> Um Mark Kreutzer. Um and I we had a chat. We're like, oh, we need to start doing OTCs. And and so Score was our first. We lost our virginity to to Score first. And then like over the last 12"
  },
  {
    "i": 421,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "months, we've done 30-odd different OTCs, and and the terms have been completely different. And then we And like I don't like selling. Um and so a big chunk of DSV was just like locked"
  },
  {
    "i": 422,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "up. And so as we're a liquid fund, we we've had to slowly sort of balance that a bit. Then Astrid is yeah, the the the the PLC side, which focuses on on subnet 127. But we've also created like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 423,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "subnet VC firm, which doesn't actually have a name. Like the the M&S firm or the S&M firm, I don't know. Um and because all of 2025, we were looking at the ecosystem, and there was no new subnets"
  },
  {
    "i": 424,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "coming in, pretty much. Um and and after proof of talk, we're like, okay, let's give it a few months. And and by October, November, there's still no new talent really. And so we thought,"
  },
  {
    "i": 425,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "screw it. Let's let's build a a factory line where we could just funnel in brand new teams, new talent. Um and so yeah, so from November onwards, we've I don't know, launched about eight"
  },
  {
    "i": 426,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "different teams or or more. Um but yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 427,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Well, I think, you know, one of the other beautiful things about BitTensor is that, you know, as you speak to founders, especially founders of subnets, um most of them come from the"
  },
  {
    "i": 428,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "AI space first. They're AI first, and this is kind of their first foray into crypto. And when you're building AI products on chain, you want it to be that way versus the other way around,"
  },
  {
    "i": 429,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "like crypto people coming into AI and trying to figure it out. And the majority of the BitTensor ecosystem is really put together of of AI people that are now working in this decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 430,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "space."
  },
  {
    "i": 431,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Um Frank, I want to go back to you. You know, we talked about kind of having these conversations with institutions."
  },
  {
    "i": 432,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "We talked about a little bit about what they get hung up on."
  },
  {
    "i": 433,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Where does regulation stand in that in in in that um hierarchy? Like where where does is regulation an issue? Um you know, is there do they prefer to hold just Tao themselves and custody themselves? Do"
  },
  {
    "i": 434,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "they want regulated products? I'm sure they do."
  },
  {
    "i": 435,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> As well, as far as regulation go, I can relate to the marketing crypto assets, the European market, since we are regulated entity, um as well as the structured financial product, obviously, that we have with"
  },
  {
    "i": 436,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "the ETP. In both cases, it is yes, regulation matters, and it matters a lot, right? So, most institutions, at least in Europe, won't touch it unless it's in a kind of a structured format or"
  },
  {
    "i": 437,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "a fully regulated environment."
  },
  {
    "i": 438,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Uh infamously, we tried to do a collaboration with a bank in 2022 in uh Sweden at the time, and then the regulator personally, you know, they stepped in and blocked the deal."
  },
  {
    "i": 439,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Um and and you know, the the answer was basically there needs to be a regulated environment. So, that is also true for, I think, BitTensor ecosystem and investment exposure uh by financial"
  },
  {
    "i": 440,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "institutions. So, they need the likes of what you might create in and you know, institutional-grade custody, uh which obviously we can also provide."
  },
  {
    "i": 441,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Uh and then for some, it's easier in a structured product or a more tax optimized product as well that just makes it easier to to get access to the um for the institutions. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 442,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Did you want to say something, James?"
  },
  {
    "i": 443,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Well, I just want to say like I I'm always going to want to say something, so."
  },
  {
    "i": 444,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> We're a public company, so I'm a fiduciary. I have to make sure our Tao is stored in an institutionally safe place that, you know, I don't want to get sued. When I have subnet exposure,"
  },
  {
    "i": 445,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "you know, we have some subnet exposure for instance with UMA in their index funds. So, this is, you know, institutional grade, due diligence has been done. And and by the way, that's"
  },
  {
    "i": 446,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "the one problem Wall Street has with subnets is that you don't know if someone's going to disappear or uh you know, the people Wall Street doesn't understand the wild west of the subnets."
  },
  {
    "i": 447,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Now, we do or we think we largely do, but that has to be communicated why there's value. It has to be explained for each subnet individually why there's value, why these managers of these"
  },
  {
    "i": 448,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "subnets are are legit and and you do your due diligence. Has to be treated like any good investment, but it's a little harder because there isn't that equity connection. So, you have to"
  },
  {
    "i": 449,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "really understand again, utility and in what way do token holders get the same even if it's kind of pretend a little bit, the same rights as equity holders in a in a public company setting."
  },
  {
    "i": 450,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Yeah, just to chime in on that, I think what's interesting under the the MiCA regulation and I think the clarity act as well is, you know, there's a disclosure of white papers and so on"
  },
  {
    "i": 451,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "that company kind of like any kind of token listing on your regulated exchange. Obviously, that kind of standard on subnets would probably benefit, you know, wider adoptance on an institutional level if that would be"
  },
  {
    "i": 452,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "adopted within the ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "i": 453,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 454,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "And yeah, the as I say, the only thing I'd add is I bifurcate this into two topics. One is just Tao itself, like the protocol and I think, you know, with the US administration now being far more"
  },
  {
    "i": 455,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "crypto favorable and Genie Sack clarity act, like that's not really a big, you know, hill to get over with investors."
  },
  {
    "i": 456,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "They're largely familiar with these frameworks that protocols have used to launch their tokens. But on the UMass and management side, I mean, it's no different than any other US-based investment offering. We"
  },
  {
    "i": 457,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "KYC investors, you have to meet investor requirements. There's, you know, subscription documents you have to fill, which is regardless of the investment you're making and an accredited investor"
  },
  {
    "i": 458,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "is familiar with that type of process."
  },
  {
    "i": 459,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "So, it's it's pretty pretty standard."
  },
  {
    "i": 460,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Well, speak speaking of regulation, UMA has done a lot of work in in Washington and, uh, you know, brought BitTensor folks to Washington to help explain decentralized AI and the importance of decentralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 461,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "AI. So, why don't you just touch quickly on kind of some of the work that UMA and DCG have been doing in Washington?"
  },
  {
    "i": 462,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Uh, yeah, sure. I guess for for context, DCG annually brings, uh, founders to, uh, to DC to meet with, uh, uh, elected officials, regulators, uh, staffers, et cetera. And the last 2"
  },
  {
    "i": 463,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "years we've done an AI track. And, uh, you know, it it topics and questions vary depending on their level of crypto knowledge. Um, more often than not, they don't know anything about crypto. So, you you're"
  },
  {
    "i": 464,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "you're at you think you would go in and you need to talk at 10,000 ft, but you're really at like 30,000 ft level conversations. But, um, people understand that, you know, that it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 465,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "more of like a national security issue, the AI arms race, if you will. We were talking about this kind of with the first question that like open-source technology moves faster and that's why"
  },
  {
    "i": 466,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "the government should pay attention and, you know, allow this type of community and technology to thrive in America and and they're very receptive."
  },
  {
    "i": 467,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> We're getting close to time, but maybe I'll close it on on on one question to kind of sum it all up. I think, um, you know, this has been a great panel, but I asked the question earlier, where do"
  },
  {
    "i": 468,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "you institutional investors fall short in their kind of understanding and their knowledge of BitTensor."
  },
  {
    "i": 469,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Maybe I'd like to flip it and ask like, where do we fall short as a community, as an ecosystem, as builders, as people that really want to carry the torch for BitTensor?"
  },
  {
    "i": 470,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "What what can we do to help further that mission, to get on the same page?"
  },
  {
    "i": 471,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "Because if you look at some of the biggest lobbyists in the world, they have one mission. Every time they go to Washington, they have one mission. They have one narrative, one talking point."
  },
  {
    "i": 472,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "And I think because this ecosystem is so broad and because we're trying to solve so many different problems, we have 128 different talking points."
  },
  {
    "i": 473,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "We have 128 different problems we're trying to solve. So, how do we align as an industry on one thing? What is that message?"
  },
  {
    "i": 474,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "What do we leave people with?"
  },
  {
    "i": 475,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": ">> So, I speak to a lot of different like entities and the the the town planning process is is quite long. I I may spend 1 to 3 months trying to convince someone, \"Hey, BitTensor is amazing.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 476,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "And then they get to the stage of, \"Yes, okay, I like it.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 477,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "But the thing is the goal posts are constantly moving."
  },
  {
    "i": 478,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "So, like we haven't had a stable like period of detail that, you know, every 2 months it sort of changes. And if someone's trying to allocate 10, 20, 50 million dollars into into this eco, they"
  },
  {
    "i": 479,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "can't make long like forward-looking business decisions when things are moving all the time. And we're just so complex. You look at Ethereum and all the other sort of crypto projects, it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 480,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "slightly easier to understand."
  },
  {
    "i": 481,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "Um but then when you start getting your head into into detail, we are yes, I agree, we have to pivot and change and and fix a few things, but there's a lot of like jug like spinning"
  },
  {
    "i": 482,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "plates, you know, from conviction to shorting that's coming. And that scares the [ __ ] out of people."
  },
  {
    "i": 483,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "And and at the moment like if you're to take a snapshot of subnets a year ago compared to now, there's a night-and-day difference. So, that that great. But, we we we do have this sort"
  },
  {
    "i": 484,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "of bifurcation of subnet classes."
  },
  {
    "i": 485,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "Whether, you know, it's a big are you a revenue subnet or you're a research subnet. And when you look at the the the downward sell-side forces on each of the subnets pools, it's there's there's far more down pressure"
  },
  {
    "i": 486,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "than than upside because you have root prop, you have basically a net outflow."
  },
  {
    "i": 487,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "And so, when someone is looking to invest in detail in general and yet and they go, \"Oh, there's X amount of business subnets and X amount of research subnets.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 488,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "Well, if if you're a research subnet, it's really hard because how do you prop up or drive value to your alpha so that you're not just bleeding into D red over a period of time. And so, I I I only see"
  },
  {
    "i": 489,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "two outcomes. You a research subnet will do nothing nothing nothing nothing boom."
  },
  {
    "i": 490,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "And then a big fish in the real world will come and gobble you up and just write as many zeros as you want. And then that issue that that comes to the question of where is the value linkage"
  },
  {
    "i": 491,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "between real world equity because they'll they'll say, \"We'll buy your top code which owns the subnet.\" So, that that value linkage to alpha holders and and equity holders, etc. Um or nothing"
  },
  {
    "i": 492,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "nothing nothing and then die a quiet whimper of a death. And it's the same with revenue subnets as well. So, I think we have to have subnets that are that are running before they start and"
  },
  {
    "i": 493,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "and getting to to revenue ASAP. So, the the key metric for for ourselves when we're looking is what is the the the time to first buyback? Cuz there's all sorts of metrics out there. Oh, time to"
  },
  {
    "i": 494,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "revenue, blah blah blah. Revenue's great, but it's a vanity metric. Um cuz the business first of all needs to make profit before it can do any buybacks."
  },
  {
    "i": 495,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "And that's the easiest way to drive value to your alpha. And then whether you burn or that is is your call, but so time to first buyback is is like the best metric. And if we have a whole"
  },
  {
    "i": 496,
    "speaker": "Speaker 9",
    "text": "plethora of easier to understand subnets that are making profit and doing and driving value cuz people are attracted to those green charts, not down charts, which is 90% of subnets at the moment."
  },
  {
    "i": 497,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Yeah, and just to add to what Sam was saying that it's okay if a if a subnet has no revenues, but you need to communicate."
  },
  {
    "i": 498,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "You need You need to be like Amazon in 1999. Oh, we're not going to have profits for it probably that hey, we're going to You should anticipate that we're going to be really big and you"
  },
  {
    "i": 499,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "know, show the road map for getting there and then people will buy your token in anticipation of future buybacks and so on. But I I want to just say that you know, the the biggest problem Tao has is its"
  },
  {
    "i": 500,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "best feature, which is that it's totally decentralized. And by the way, not many cryptos are. Like there's no CEO of Tao."
  },
  {
    "i": 501,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "And you know, Solana for instance early on hired a head of marketing. Okay, and then Solana got more popular. And there's no head of market There's not going to be a head of marketing for Tao."
  },
  {
    "i": 502,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Where everybody in this room is the head of marketing for Tao. Tao's very hard to understand. It it takes a while to be Tao-pilled. So you have to you know, every subnet owner has to be really"
  },
  {
    "i": 503,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "clear how to explain their their road map to business viability the way Amazon is, the way public companies are. And and everybody here has to be able to be really good at explaining what Tao is"
  },
  {
    "i": 504,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "and how to how to communicate that cuz we're the only heads of marketing for understanding Tao. So that's that's where we, you know, in terms of the UI, in terms of explaining where where the"
  },
  {
    "i": 505,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "value is for subnet tokens, we have to be really good at that. The other thing I want to say is a year ago today, first day approval of Tao a year ago, uh we actually I actually launched Tao"
  },
  {
    "i": 506,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "Synergies. We we bought our first Tao."
  },
  {
    "i": 507,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "We announced we were doing this and it was so exciting to be in this community where I was meeting a lot of the people, a lot of people on the stage in the in the Tao ecosystem, a lot of people in"
  },
  {
    "i": 508,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "the audience. And I was thinking to myself, oh my gosh, these people are so smart. This is like the smartest group of people I've ever encountered. And I feel doubly so now. And again, that's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 509,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "that's like this big secret that the Tao ecosystem has is so much talent in this room and in this conference and in the entire ecosystem. So, A, for me, this has been like a great reunion because"
  },
  {
    "i": 510,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": "it's exciting to see people again a year later and to still be alive and in the Tao space a year later and even thriving. So, I look forward to the to the next year."
  },
  {
    "i": 511,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Evan, parting words?"
  },
  {
    "i": 512,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": ">> Um I agree with everything that's been said. Um two other points I would say how do we invert this is we like to compare ourselves to other crypto protocols. I think we need to stop doing"
  },
  {
    "i": 513,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "that. We're already like two or three x largest than the second closest competitor. I think which like already been decided. We need to start, you know, comparing ourselves to the web two"
  },
  {
    "i": 514,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "giants in a more consistent way. Um and even the open source ones like Open Cog Deep Seek, etc., right? So, we need to kind of change the company we keep a little bit."
  },
  {
    "i": 515,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "Um and then two, in order to do that, like I just think it's like the community, like James was saying, you know, we need to have more canonical resources that aren't Discord and things"
  },
  {
    "i": 516,
    "speaker": "Speaker 11",
    "text": "like that. We need to have, you know, very easy to find, simple to read, and simple to understand places for anyone to find us and all this great stuff that the subnets are doing and accomplishing."
  },
  {
    "i": 517,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> Final words?"
  },
  {
    "i": 518,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": ">> I guess I'm having a contrarian view a little bit today. I I think capital is oxygen and when I talk to some subnets and I've been doing that over the last year, I think a lot of them are"
  },
  {
    "i": 519,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "suffering from not having enough oxygen."
  },
  {
    "i": 520,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Um it would help if those rails, both on our protocol level and just the the whole ecosystem around it, has more access to capital. I think good teams are dying. I speak to subnet teams that"
  },
  {
    "i": 521,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "go say to me, well, I can go and raise a centralized round and raise $10 million tomorrow, but here I'm not getting capital. So, I know the Bittensor system doesn't want to hear this, but I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 522,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "with the lack of access to capital, either it's going to move they're going to give up and move to centralized protocols, or there's going to be a little bit of a Solana moment that a"
  },
  {
    "i": 523,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "protocol that comes along and does provide those rails that get VC-backed, and they will be pretty effective if competing. So, that's my maybe not so nice message to the BitTensor BitTensor ecosystem, but it is a message"
  },
  {
    "i": 524,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "that I've heard a couple of times now from different subnets. So."
  },
  {
    "i": 525,
    "speaker": "Speaker 12",
    "text": "Other than that, I'm super bullish just to be clear."
  },
  {
    "i": 526,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Super bullish."
  },
  {
    "i": 527,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": ">> Super bullish. Well, in in in closing, the uh kind of the one thing that uh we we have to bring forward as a community got four different answers. So, >> [laughter] >> um thank you guys very much. It was a"
  },
  {
    "i": 528,
    "speaker": "Speaker 8",
    "text": "it's uh incredible panel, and I appreciate all your time. Thanks, Mike."
  },
  {
    "i": 529,
    "speaker": "Speaker 10",
    "text": ">> Thank you, and thank everyone."
  },
  {
    "i": 530,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> [applause] >> Thank you so much. Thank you."
  },
  {
    "i": 531,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "i": 532,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> [applause] >> Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "i": 533,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Thanks."
  },
  {
    "i": 534,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "Take care. Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "i": 535,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> This concludes the uh program for tonight. We have the uh BitTensor networking hour here in this same room."
  },
  {
    "i": 536,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "We're going to ask that everybody leave this room through the glass doors so that we can reconfigure the chairs. The the the nice staff here will take a moment, and in just a few minutes, we'll"
  },
  {
    "i": 537,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "uh let everybody back in."
  },
  {
    "i": 538,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": "So, thank you so much. If you have some something of your belongings, take them, and we'll meet again here in a few minutes."
  },
  {
    "i": 539,
    "speaker": "Speaker 7",
    "text": ">> Thank you very much."
  }
]