[
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "All right. So, now let's talk about Vitalik's post on Sunday. Um Let's We'll just talk about a part of it at first. So, um he First of all, I just need to say he said that this was just his views. Um"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so, obviously there's other people at the foundation and like other board members."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um but as we said, everybody knows that what Vitalik says is it's probably going to go. So, anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh as I mentioned earlier, he said that Bastien was executing the EF's transition, which, you know, was interesting to me just because it feels very Vitalik to me, but maybe that's why"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Bastien is the co-ED."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and then he talked about like how Google started as don't be evil, but then he said that all large companies now are bending to what he called greed for financial gain, totalizing visions"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of accelerated super intelligence, infiltration by sociopaths, and craven capitulation to, or worse, active participation in government pressure for ideological control, surveillance, and war."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then he said that like the fact that this was happening influenced his vision of the EF to not be a center of Ethereum, but as one node with a defined purpose alongside other nodes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then basically, he also talked about how the EF has limited financial resources with only about 0.0 point Sorry, 0.16% of all ETH."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And for that reason, it will focus those resources on pursuing longevity over breadth."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, you know, to my The way I read that was like maybe some of these departures have to just frankly deal with money. Um because with the ETH price down by more than half from the fall, um you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that means that their budget has also shrunk. Um but then the last bit is he talked about how Ethereum must be impressive. And he defined that as provably bug-free, available chain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "consensus, and intermediary minimization."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, we'll talk about the second half of the post in a moment, but first of all, like what did you make of of all these parts?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I I mean you don't exit senior leadership because budget's tight. Uh like the folks running the ship. So, like you know, you exit like solidity which people complain about on a frequent"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "basis into their own organ. That's a budgetary concern. So, I would not associate budget cuts to like, you know, Tim and all those folks leaving. I think that's more like systematic."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And also also people have been around for like 10 years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Like you know."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Like they're they're they they were the they were the folks that were around like when we were all getting started doing this stuff and they were in it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like we all believed the same thing and that's what motivated all of us to actually do anything cuz I wasn't getting paid [ __ ] for a really long time. Granted, I still don't get paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "[ __ ] but like, you know, >> [laughter] >> like it was it was tough for a while and if you were in it and if you got in around the same time I got in and the time Greg got in like we built we worked"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "on these two. We did a bunch of stuff. I wasn't getting paid. I was in it for the love of the game. Like you know, it's something that I believed in, something that I could rally behind and I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that's what made Ethereum so awesome at the beginning and I think now we're trying to like backpedal to try to put this crops thing front and center which I agree with. You know, it's and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it's it doesn't have anything to do with the ethos necessarily. It just has to do with how they're running things. You You can't run things the same way that they were run before, but I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they've become such like a titan of influence that it's riskier to try to like take to try to take it in another direction it needs to go because, you know, there's a lot of moving parts and now there's like a lot"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "more at stake, you know, and they're probably just a little scared as well."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> So, okay. Now, in the second half of the post, this to me, it's funny that to me that's like made me raise my eyebrows."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "He said, \"The most high-value product of the Ethereum blockchain, financially speaking, is ETH, the asset.\" And it's just funny that, you know, when the creator of Ethereum says that the most"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "high-value product of the blockchain is actually ETH, like the fact that that's headlines headline news to me because he generally kind of like distains talking about price and and all that. Like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Anyway, um then the other thing he said was um there are aspects of supporting ETH, the asset, necessary aspects even, that are outside the scope of the EF."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "This is where we need other heroes, some of whom hold more ETH than the EF does, to step in and help. So, I kind of read that as almost like an implicit endorsement of the Dinkum idea. I don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know if you agree with that, but like what what was your reaction to the statement about ETH, the asset?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> I mean, I think it's about time. Like, yeah, hey, ETH has value and it presents a unique utility to the network. Like, duh. Like, should have said that [ __ ] 5 years ago, bro. Come on, get real. Like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "hey, actually, now that I think about it, ETH is pretty important. Like >> It's like literally what proof of stake is based on. Like, it's the value is low, then security's low."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> You don't build an economic engine and then say, \"Oh, you know what? Maybe economics are important.\" Like, it doesn't Like, did you not think about that 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You know, come on. I mean, I'm not going to light parp on the guy for saying what we've all been thinking. I'm just going to be like, \"This isn't news, people. Like, let's go. Like, you know, like we need"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to focus on ETH as the monetary premium of the network. That is what creates value.\" That's it. That's what attracts new users. That's what creates security."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Most importantly, is like the security of the network is entirely dependent on ETH having value. That's how it works."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That's the innovation of blockchain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That's the innovation of crypto, you know? So, just seems a little weird that he's coming out and saying that stuff now, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Greg."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> It was like his Wolf of Wall Street moment, you know, the way But it was just as Zach said a little bit late."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> It's it's in line with what's happening now. I mean like they hired D 5 leads."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Great, you know, still very late D 5 summer was, you know, >> 6 years ago."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> lambos ago."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> Uh >> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I've got I've got married and had kids, raised those kids like >> You know, that's where I got my first gray hair. Um, I had But like it's nice that it's happening."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's just late."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um, but it's also maybe he's turning a page."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Maybe they're all turning a page, you know, it's They're serious competitors out there."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I don't know. The way that I read that was like he's paying lip service. That's how it read to me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But this leads me to my next topic which I I tweeted about this like to my mind."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I feel like ETH's crypto economics are kind of broken right now. I think like so many people think that Ethereum is super valuable and I think that there's like a lot of people that want to fight"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for it and are and and like all the I, you know, ideals and principles that Vitalik talks about and crops and all these things. I actually think so many people are really into that. But the fact of the matter is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that Vitalik and the EF See, I I just want to say Vitalik, but anyway, um, they >> the EF."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, they haven't kind of like um, used So, basically ETH ether could be used as an amazing tool to push those crops principles. It could be used to, you know, get many people kind of into"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this uh community and ecosystem that values those principles, which I think are actually really important. It's just that everyday people don't know that those principles are important. So, if"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you kind of do the BD and you do use the cryptoeconomics to get people interested in ETH, then you can kind of like Trojan horse those principles to them. But, because everyday people don't give a [ __ ] about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that, like by him just being like, \"I'm going to, you know, do these principles and and like then sort of, you know, hope and and pray that people get interested.\" Like, I feel like that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "not going to be as effective. So, I was curious, like, do you agree that Ethers cryptoeconomics are broken? And and a second piece is I do feel like the foundation is plays a critical role in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "formulating those cryptoeconomics, and I feel like because they're not focused on it, that's like another problem. Would you agree that the foundation is kind of a crucial player in formulating that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, 100%. No question."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I think I >> If you try to change the curve that exists there, like, I guarantee you're going to have the entire R&D team swoop in there and just be like, uh, no."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Like, I'm sorry, the curve? Like, the emissions curve?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, of course. If you try and touch the economics, like, there's no way they don't all just jump in on it. You know what I mean? It's like, you could have like a perfect, you know, by definition"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "perfect, but there's nothing perfect, but like I mean, I I swear like on the Hassu podcast, like, the one from years and years and years ago, there was like discussions about changing the curve,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "but that was like 3 4 years ago."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like, we still haven't changed the curve."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Well, now there's a EIP they're proposing that's going to reduce emissions, essentially cut it in half, which is going to be really great. Yeah, another contentious another contentious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "EIP. You ready?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, it's like the risk-free return on this just isn't worth or worth it at all."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, that's sort of what David Hoffman was saying cuz I I also tweeted that like Ethereum's not interested in putting points up on the scoreboard and he said that yeah, that was basically"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "why he pieced out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> they should be interested. I mean, the fact that there's a scoreboard with points on it implies that you're playing on a field that cares about those things. If you're on a team that doesn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "care about winning, then go back to the playground."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> [laughter] >> I feel like I'm on a sports podcast right now, but we're >> [laughter] >> So, this actually leads perfectly to my next question, um which is all about kind of this coming era of or we're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we're we're really already in this era of competition, actually. And this morning Frank Chaparro tweeted quote, \"Ethereum's dominance is slipping. ETH is down about 30% year-to-date. The"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "ETH/BTC ratio just hit its lowest level since mid-2025 and blockchain revenue is steadily shifting toward Solana, Tron, and Hyperliquid. The competitive landscape is changing fast.\" And his tweet had a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "chart that showed exactly that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Actually, Juanma, can you expand it out?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like if you click on the image. Yeah, so like if you look it might be hard to see, but like basically, um the blue where it's you know, it's super dominant for a period, that is Ethereum. And then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "when you look at the the you know, the recent I think it's like by quarters or something. Um and basically, it's actually quite evenly spread. And so, um you know, I kind of get the feeling that like the EF"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or Vitalik either is unaware that there's this massive competition going on and there's all these players that are vying, you know, to to get people on chain or they don't care or I don't know. What"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "what's your read on kind of like whether or not they seem to recognize that the competition is only just getting started."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I think they're totally oblivious."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I mean, in previous cycles we've always seen these like ETH killers come out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You remember like EOS and all that other all that other crap and it was always it was always kind of like vaporware, but you know, it was only a matter of time before somebody could come put together"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "a car that looks cooler and is actually faster, you know."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Um, I think that there's no competitive edge left because, you know, we we've had such a winning streak of like being the [ __ ] and being cool and having the great tech and having all the good"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "researchers and having the mind share that it kind of made everybody kind of kind of complicit and lazy, but I think, you know, they still don't really have their ear to the ground. Everybody like,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you know, it's still uh it's still pretty, you know, I don't know."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think they're definitely out of touch."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "But, that's not to say that it's too late. Like, I also I I don't I'm not buying the whole like ETH is make ETH win again and blah blah. I still think ETH is doing well. I think that we're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "doing better than any other network out there and the whole market is just down because, you know, AI's kind of taking over and, you know, there's like a lot of other shiny objects out there that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that are going to attract like younger more like younger talent, you know, than than crypto. Crypto was like the hot [ __ ] for a minute, but now it's more like just a standard component in the tech"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "stack now as opposed to like a new thing that's out and AI is out and it's new and it's attracting a lot of talent and a lot of young people. I think that's just inevitable."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I'm no longer young. I was young when I started working on this. Look at me now, you know?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Still working on it. Haven't gotten smarter, I guess."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Greg, what about you? What do you think about the EF and its either attitude toward or awareness of the competition."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I mean I don't think they're like I don't think you can be truly battle oblivious."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "But when it comes down to what's actually happening, I believe that like a good chunk are just not paying attention to other stuff."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um you know, like a chain say if we like brand and build infrastructure and nodes for like most major blockchains and we would bring back ideas that looked great and it was always like ah yeah, don't know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "anything about that chain. And that's like a common pattern."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You know, whether they know the stats is one thing, but whether they care about what's happening from like you know, in that ecosystem specifically is like its own battle and truthfully"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "most of the time it's not."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Um Yeah, like you would have to be like gross negligence to not be fully aware of what's going on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> I share that they're aware, but I think it's maybe like arrogance that's >> Well, yeah, they they it's the care, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, they're like we don't need to compete. We don't need to compete. Like you know what I mean? Like >> You just kind of piece of Unchained. I'm host Laura Shin and the full conversation is in the description"
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  {
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