[ { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "When you're asking when is the next reset, system resets are when people say, \"I've had enough. I'm not doing X anymore.\" And it still won't be reset." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It'll just be more control. They're going to get hurt a lot. [music] Exactly what's happening at a faster and faster pace. And a lot of people will lose everything inside [music] that system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if you follow that map, because the systems are opposite. If you follow that map to long-term savings alone, and then 2000 dot com crisis, and then [music] 2008, and then COVID, you can see a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "clear trend that it's exponential money printing on each time. Do you think that there is still [music] like a possibility? I mean, a lot of people bring up like the 0.1 Bitcoin or 10" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "million sats or a million sats [music] to be able to be financially free down the line. Obviously, like right now it's what? Like I mean, Bitcoin sitting at 75,000. So, it's maybe $7,500 or $750." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "And do you think that it is a possibility that if you just own like a a small fraction [music] of this protocol going forward that you could be financially free in this deflationary" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "world? If it stays decentralized and secure, that is a guarantee." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "We've got the man, the myth, the legend, Jeff Booth in the house who's going to have an absolute firecracker of a talk coming up in Bitcoin Prague. He had one at Vegas. You guys all have known Jeff" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Booth for his amazing talks on AI and deflationary times that we're in that I think is all coming to fruition right now. But Jeff, going back to your first book, you were really talking about the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "times where you predicted the government would essentially have to print exponentially more of money every single year. It seems like the global bond markets are melting down today. So, how" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "close do you think we are when it comes to the next global financial reset?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah, I get I think the reset is the thing that I I I'm I'm not take issue with. It's we have You can either measure the world but with by 21 units, 21 million units, and all prices will fall in the free" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "market, the first free market that's ever existed, or you can choose to measure the world in infinite units, a credit-based system that has to create infinite units, and in that system" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "prices will rise." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, how long can that go on? When you say reset, most people, even most Bitcoiners, are giving all of their energy and utilizing the money that's to to being all the time from that. So, how could that system" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "reset without the change in people?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The system system resets are when people say I've had enough. I'm not doing X anymore." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And they do what? Or or or a war breaks out or something and it takes them just something else. But, the reset is more than likely because everybody's operating from that system, from the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "system that's debasing their money, and giving it more strength, believing there's somebody else to blame in the system that they're using that's debasing themselves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um And and so, they're going to get hurt a lot. Like we they just exactly what's happening at a faster and faster pace." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and a lot of people will lose everything inside that system, and it still won't be reset. It'll just be more control." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Now, I I and I agree with you 100% and I think it's kind of an interesting time cuz it's we're in this transitionary period where we've seen a lot of the Bitcoin treasury companies come online" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "last year and essentially none of them have really I guess like increased their buy except for sailor and strategy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "And it seems like kind of like a dormant period." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "But, Wall Street is kind of coming in and a lot of the big banks are embracing Bitcoin. And I think some maybe some new people coming into Bitcoin or maybe looking at it through a different lens" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "with the ETFs, the Treasury companies that I named and and some other things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Does this concentration seem to worry you maybe of how new people are coming in and looking at Bitcoin uh instead of you know maybe what it was created for as that peer-to-peer cash or" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "did you just think that this is I guess a part of the transition of you know essentially of the the Bitcoinization of the world? It shouldn't worry It doesn't worry me. It should worry them." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So if you're pricing in the derivative units that they're printing more of then and you give away your Bitcoin to somebody else to hold for you you can expect it's going to be centralized and changed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If you hold self-custody and run a node, you are a part of the network that is making sure it's decentralized and secure." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And that version of Bitcoin that you're talking about that's getting co-opted and essentially if you just imagine if you had this new asset that was underpinning broken money and money was still broken and you were" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "using the broken money that just created more and more liquidity more and more when I say liquidity more and more debt on top of the system that couldn't reset because the free markets the opposite" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "then then playing in that system you are likely to get burned." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Bitcoin is imposing a different system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's imposing a decentralized secure protocol that is repricing this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So if you're if you're not in self-custody, if you're not running a node, you don't have a vote." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You are not part of the network. You are you are a proxy. You have a you have a derivative claim on Bitcoin and somebody else has the Bitcoin and that little Bitcoin is likely to be changed" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "to protect the claim the debt claims on top of it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Now what do you mean that Bitcoin will be changed? So yeah so this is where you can look at the the the the talk I just gave in in Vegas to to talk about this, but but if it's a if it's an asset underpinning" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "broken money, and we still use broken money, let's let's imagine another time over that look like. So, gold." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "What happens when you use gold underneath broken money?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Gold centralizes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then when gold centralizes, it says, \"And you're still using the thing on top, and you come back to get your gold, the the the counterparty said, \"It's not there, so we're going to change the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "rules on gold.\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? So, we just changed the rules on on the centralized asset because we've centralized it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, so now if you think about So, and this is where it's important to add the other lens I constantly say, we live in a world of massive productivity." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The the that productivity should be flowing to you. Prices should be falling really fast. As as we the free market is us competing for value against other people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, when we live in a world of massive productivity, and we have to create more value, otherwise somebody doesn't use our good or service, um and everybody competes on same the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "same foundation, then prices should fall really fast. We should all get richer faster by operating in an infinite game." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But we don't have a recognition of what I just said because we're all we're most people are measuring what I just said from a zero-sum game." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, now you have two systems that are incompatible together. One system, the free market, prices fall." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "One system that we've always lived in, prices rise. Why do prices rise? Because we create more and more units of money to make them rise." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The only reason." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Full full stop. The only the the So, so if you now have Bitcoin underneath as an asset, and you create more and more units to make prices rise, then that consolidates the Bitcoin underneath." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And what that system you can fully expect it to do is try to attack the decentralized and secure nature of Bitcoin, the protocol, because it because those are two different systems." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? Just like just like you could hold gold in 1933 until the government said, \"Now you can't, you have to turn it in.\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, that's what happens when the centralized system changes the rules." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But because Bitcoin is decentralized and secure and though and and I run a node, you run a node, and everything else, when this happens and says, \"You have to use my version of Bitcoin,\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "what do you think the nodes are going to say?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah. Cuz and then that version of Bitcoin with all the debt claims on top of it will probably look like B-cash." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah. I mean, I I agree with you. And so, I mean, you said something interesting there, right? That that Wall Street should be worried, but you were you were not worried. Um do you think" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "that that I guess is maybe a a short-term worry for maybe some new people coming in uh just because they they don't have this understanding. And I guess like on a a follow-up question" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "on that, do you have any worry that Bitcoin could be fully centralized at at some point in time? I know that that has been somewhat of a scare for new people when they see things like strategy and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Michael Saylor, you know, getting up to close to a million coins here soon. Like is that something that uh I guess you could see in the future? So, really important note. The amount of coins" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "doesn't matter." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The decentralization doesn't come from and security does not come from the amount of coins you have. And we learned that in 2017 when the centralized parties wanted more power and tried to co-opt the network." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, and and the longest chain is still Bitcoin, nothing changed. But if you took the centralized version of what that looked like, the powers that held most of the power today, you would again" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "got liquidated. Right? Bitcoin you had a split in the coins, you could have would have got both." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, so what's the lesson from that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "What's the the lesson from that just that, but from we've always lived in a control system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If we haven't lived in the free market where prices fall, then we must admit to ourselves we have always lived in a control system. What gives the control system power?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "By getting our money stolen within the control system gives it more power. So, while we use that money, it gives gets more and more power against us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, we have to imagine the world I'm describing has never existed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And the control system is getting bigger and bigger and bigger." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and more people are moving into fear. What can I do? Wall Street's going to take the coins, this all of these things. And all they have to do, all anybody has to do is run a node," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "put it in self-custody, and they're outside and then start paying start paying for things inside a different unit that's is stealing it's not you're not allowed to be robbed in it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And you've moved out of the control system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, the question is how many people do that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But I suspect most of Wall Street isn't running nodes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I expect most people investing in ETFs aren't running nodes. They don't have a vote." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? They don't have a they're not they're not building they're not also building the privacy tech that's coming on top. They're not building the layers." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "They're not seeing what's happening in the actual free market that is being imposed by Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "They're in a different version of a market that is still a control system trying to get rich inside that system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and I mean I I think that a lot of people still look at Bitcoin basically from like the dollar exchange rate. But I mean it's a a unique asset and when you I guess look at the the adoption" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "curve, that's I I guess the biggest tell is is almost that dollar exchange rate." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "And we'll get into a lot of the deflationary pressures that not only Bitcoin brings with AI here in a minute, but um you know, a common topic Before you get there, can I just collect a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "because these words matter a lot. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's an asset versus a protocol. Those are two very different things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You've never seen a protocol emerge that you could own a part of the protocol that was decentralized and secure." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So and and why did you always hold assets? You always held assets. So it's natural to think in assets because assets, you held assets because money was broken." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Cuz you couldn't store your money in money. Mhm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "That makes sense? Yeah. So if you couldn't store your money in money, it would it would be natural to look at what other assets can't can't be stolen from me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Real estate, um uh it it holds its value, but then the government taxes it back. Right? Um gold, okay, well, I can I can actually pull it out and I can hold it myself and I can hold my value" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "my value there." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um there and then you look at all these assets that you can hold your money in." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Why do you look at these assets? Why are we in this chase to find assets?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Because money's broken." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Because we've never been able to store our money in money. And that's what Bitcoin changes. It's not an asset. It I guess you could version it as an asset, but if you think it's just an asset," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "what you're you're thinking is naturally the money is still the broken money." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But if you think of it as a protocol emerging that is money, that is a that is decentralized and secure, now you own it's it's like owning a piece of the internet in 1969." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? That's what that's what it's like like owning. And then it emerges and creates more and more value as you go forward. But if you could have owned a piece of the internet and all of the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "value on top of the internet that came forward in 1969, would you have held it the whole time?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah. Probably not, right? So that's what it So it So So again, if we look back at another protocol emerging, and even at Amazon in in 2000, it was trading at $126 and it at $3." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "How many people held it through that to today?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? And that was 40 years or 30 years after the 20 30 years after the protocol design. So how many people would actually hold through through all these cycles? And you see you can see you can imagine how" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "many people truly understand this as a protocol." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and I mean I I I agree 100% and I guess to to parlay off of that, do you Do you think that there is still like a possibility? I mean, a lot of people bring up like the 0.1 Bitcoin or, you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "know, 10 million sats or a million sats to be able to be financially free down the line. Obviously, like right now it's what, like I mean, Bitcoin's sitting at maybe 7,500, so or 75,000, so it's maybe" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "$7,500 or $750. And you know, when you look down the line, when you're explaining it like you are, I I it almost seems like, you know, the allotted amount for an average person, right, is is around 200,000 sats if you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "divide the 21 million, you know, going on down by the 8.5 billion people on Earth. So, do you think that it is a possibility that if you just own like a a small fraction of this protocol going" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "forward that you could be, you know, I guess financially free in this deflationary world um that Bitcoin can bring out in the future?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The The only caveat There is not one more caveat than than than what I'm going to say, that it stays decentralized and secure." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If it stays decentralized and secure, that is a guaranteed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? No No matter what, that is what happens because because productivity flows to you. All of the productivity All of the competition on top and other layers and everything else trying to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "compete flows to the protocol layer in Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, that is what will happen. The next question should be, what are you scared of when you can when you can take agency and help make sure that it stays decentralized and secure?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah, I don't I don't know. I guess what it What is that What is that then? So, that's what that what what ends up happening and and this is the this is why it's such a it's a crazy" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "uh rabbit hole." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Once you get to that point, you don't worry about what uh the Fed is going to do, what money is going to do Look, what all these things cuz you know all of those things are already preordained. They're going to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "happen for sure, right? Because money's already unstable. It's already um not just unstable, it's it's already defaulted, right? It's already If you marked it to market, the entire thing" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "fall fails." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, it's not a free market. So, you know for sure out of the existing system what's going to happen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And you move your time into the other system and you start building and you just it you feel for other people measuring from the other system. Right, from the fiat system, but you don't have to." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and I and I mean I think it's it's kind of a I guess a timely conversation here just because of what we're also seeing in the the AI world. It seems like the past five or six months or so" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "with you know, the open claw realm and and everything else like the AI agents." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "It's almost kind of reverting back to to your book that you you know, wrote a few years ago. It seems like all of this stuff is coming to light right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "So, how do you view these two words our worlds clashing and does that change anything from your original thesis that you had or is this kind of what the the world that you started to see you know," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "a few years ago?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And the price of tomorrow. Yeah, so in in the price of tomorrow, that's what I talked about. I talked about natural state of the free market is this. Prices fall. Mhm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Credit based system couldn't allow that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "As prices as as productivity increased exponentially with AI where AI would be most people at the time were measuring AI linearly instead of exponentially. So, they couldn't see the real trend of how fast" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "this would be on us. I would I would argue that they can't today there because how fast it's coming. This is the worst AI it'll ever be." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and so and so they're predicting the life that they've always had into a financial system that was unstable before that has to great go greater and instability at the exact opposite rate that their" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "lives should be getting better." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so by measuring in the instability and what you're saying is what when you're asking when is the next reset what you're at you why I have I pushed back specifically there is cuz there" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "will always be another one. There will always be another Oh my god, we have to do this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if you follow that math because the systems are opposite, if you follow that back to long-term savings and loans, um and then and then 2000 dot-com crisis and then 2008 and then COVID, you can see a clear" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "trend that is exponential money printing on each time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "No matter who you have elected, it's the same money printing is is happening at a staggering rate and I'm just talking about in the US. The same global phenomena is global phenomena" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "everywhere." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Because that that credit base system can't allow deflation. It can't [clears throat] allow prices to fall." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Otherwise, the whole thing resets. So, it's it's a requirement of the credit base money cuz the money is lent into existence in the first place that it has to grow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and it has to grow if if X if technology is moving exponentially trying to give you more for less, then this has to grow exponentially trying to give you less for more." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, nothing's changed, right? We're just further along the the the path and so now more and more people are starting to realize that what they believed in their whole life was a lie." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and it's it's really interesting now too with with watching how companies are reacting to the world of AI, right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "I mean, we had Block lay off I don't I think it was like 40 or 50% of their entire workforce and a lot of other companies have followed suit and a lot of them were doing pretty well. Like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "there was the reasoning was just they want to get ahead of this AI push and they see this as as coming to make everything cheaper, so they want to really lean into that. Um and you know," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "you've seen it from software stocks kind of crash. It seems like that's it's almost been the death of SAS, you know, uh software as a service companies uh because essentially you could just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "create your own software now with with AI. Now, it seems like we're still in the very early stages as I kind of land out, you know, obviously open claw and all these things have really just seemed" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "to make a push or maybe I just started paying attention in the past 5 or 6 months. Um but you know, I guess do you see us in that kind of exponential realm now with just how many new updates are" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "coming in AI and how everything is just pushing forward? Do you see that as we're kind of reaching that uh I guess suddenly route where uh yeah, it is going crazy? No, it just appears" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "that way. It appears like that to the observer, right? So, this is why I use Remember the paper folding example I use in the book? Mhm. You fold a piece of paper on itself again and again and it" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "can you can only fold it seven times, but if you could fold it over and over again, how thick would a normal 8 1/2 by 11 piece of paper be on 50 folds?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And it would reach the sun." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and most people answer uh in including myself before knowing this about 2 in." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? It breaks your brain." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Now, once you know the parlor trick, you think, \"Oh, I know this and I won't get confused again.\" And then the sand on the on the chessboard or or or whatever it's the same the same idea." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It fools you the next time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "We can't It was really hard to grasp exponentials. And so, that exponential pattern has been going on I I could say 60, 70 years Moore's law Moore's law, but I could actually go back further" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "and say information creates more information, which creates more information, and um and it's goes back way way further than that. But let's just use Moore's Moore's law as an as a is a proxy" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "and say, \"What would that look like in the early folds on AI?\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It would look like I have this belief that this AI is going to do this crazy thing and the first fold does nothing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Second fold and then oh, I still believe I still more money races in, second fold does nothing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then you create an AI winter in the 1950s because the expectations didn't match that exponential pattern, right? Because we were early in the folds. Nothing changed, it was really slow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then you go forward into the '80s and you have another AI hype cycle and now you're on call it fold, I'm just going to guess, but call it fold 25, right? Um and and AI can do more, but it still can't match" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "the projections." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, you have a giant hype cycle money going in and a collapse of AI on the other side cuz it can't do the same things, but it keeps on folding, it keeps on folding. And now where we are" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "at fold 37 or fold 38 the steps are so much bigger going to the sun." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and that's what's in store for us in the next 18 months." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The going forward. And so so when you say, \"Are we in the exponential pattern now and now can we see it?\" We've been in it for a long time, it's just now where the the big steps are here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I mean, I just being at it's almost like a full-time job, you know, trying to keep up with what what is going on with all the changes in AI. It just seems like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "it's so rapid these days. And you know, I guess like combining that with the the force of Bitcoin now, um you know, what what do you see this as I guess like changing in let's say the next 18 to 24" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "months. Um do you see this kind of revolutionizing the workforce or I guess, you know, making a change. I think you and I have talked a little bit about how your son is is using AI" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "constantly now in in his college years." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Um, but you know, seeing that is there I guess a world where, you know, maybe people don't work until they're 60 or 70 like it's doing that, right? Like maybe there's an earlier retirement phase or" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "do you think that that word retirement just almost goes away because, you know, we go to a three to four-day work week or or something like that. Like how do you see the rest of this, I guess, world" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "playing out with all of this? So So, take these things as as almost different operating systems with different different winners, losers, what the system would look like. So, when you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "when you ask what everyone looks like, Mhm. that's something that's almost impossible to answer cuz people are going to make different choices. Some people are going to get run over by AI" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "and they're going to complain about about about AI taking their job. Will they use the service that is AI because they don't want to pay more for the person for the 10 people in his company." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? So, if you're So, remember, the free market is I must create value for other people, period." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then everybody can compete with me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, if you lived in that world, which Bitcoin is dominating, is anchoring, then you're all compete all competitors are in service of you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "All competition. They all make you better." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You make them better, they make you better. And if you created a ton of value in that in in that, then you get a little bit more of the pie as they use your product or service." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then the margin that you create creates your competitors to beat you with all their ideas to provide more value. That's the way the world should work." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It doesn't. So, your question is essentially the the chaotic How does the How What's the response by the control system?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And all of the people that are feeding the control system with their outrage making it stronger." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? Believing it's somebody else." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Well, they use the money that is being consolidated against them." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, it's and and and because that's so hard in our brains to be able to imagine, we don't want to believe it's us. It has to be those other people If somebody serves up um right or left in in government, we we" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "have our choice. No, this person's better for all the reasons that this But it's unsolvable from a system uh of credit-based money. The system is unsolvable. It can't be the free market." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Meaning, that market has to extract more and more from you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I don't I don't make the rules, right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "They don't the uh that um I You could not like what I just said." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But it's nonetheless true. True. And so, you have these fights inside. You have these new heroes emerging. That person's going to save the day. But nobody can save the day because it's based on" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "credit-based money that's extracting from you at a faster pace. So, inside that system as you lose your job to AI um and what will you likely do?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You will vote for the company the the government that gives you back and and blame somebody else for losing for losing your job. You'd say, \"I'll protect you. I'll save you.\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Without asking, \"Where did the money come from to save you?\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Came from you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? And you'll likely get stuck into, \"We should tax the robots." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "We should There should be universal high income.\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Well, where does universal high income come from? And if you owned the means of production of everybody using your thing, and you could get people to believe that you had this magic money that they" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "could get for nothing, you would you would lock in the means of production from everyone else." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, so why why I kind of went on that rant, it's it's really confusing and based on your observation, which system you're in and what that looks like, it's actually not that confusing. If you're in the If you're in" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "the protocol and what the market should look like, prices should be falling." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If you're If you're measuring in Bitcoin, and that's what's happening." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Now, I guess to to follow up on that, like how do we get to a free market? Do you think that there's going to be a a gradual uh movement towards there as we're or we're moving into" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "uh I guess these these worlds colliding um or you know, with this credit-based system that we're currently in, is that going to have to implode on itself? Um yeah, how do you see this playing out?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's going to try It's going to try to trap you. It's going to In some In some areas, there's going going to be wealth tax wealth taxes, more extraction, more more rising up from the left. It'll" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It'll It'll split in two sides." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Some countries will move to socialism to try to resolve it. Some systems will move to fascism to try to solve it. Cutting through all of the systems is the free market, which is Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It doesn't care. Doesn't care about the words we label. Doesn't care about As long as it stays decentralized and secure, every 10 minutes there's a new block, and you can own a part of that," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "and you can run a node, and you can be a part of it, and you can spend in it, and you can be outside of the noise that's going to come." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And you know this, Brandon, and many of the people that we talk to every day know this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And what gives me so much hope um of of this thing that sounds almost crazy if you're in the other system is is I know tens of thousands of people that are in this new system, operating" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "in this new system, and it's exploit it gets easy and your life gets easier and easier and easier." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, I mean it it definitely does. I mean Bitcoin 100% changed my life. All I needed to do is buy and hold and and wait a couple years and drastically changed my life and my outlook, too. I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "don't even know if I would be talking to you with this without without Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I'd probably be locked away in a cubicle to say the very least, learning about AI in my Think about your worried about your job, right? Yeah, exactly. And so so with just what you just said, you can" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "empathize with what her many many of the people are still today." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and and and of course if if the change is us, but there's call it 10,000 people over on the front edge of this and and adding more and more and more and more. And as this dystopian system gets worse," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Likely a whole bunch of people are going to get caught. It's going to but but get hurt." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But the change is also us. Like I was once I didn't know this at one point." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Then the learning and the and and the moving and then deciding to move my time opens up a whole lot bunch of different opportunities that I wouldn't have seen just like you had I not been there. Now" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "we're now we're in a different opportunity space, building in a different opportunity space for me without any fear." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and when you don't have fear, you have better ideas." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You have more opportunities. You see you see things more clearly. There's just you're almost in flow of a whole bunch of different things that can happen. So that's the We live in a system that is extractive" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "and trying to drive us to fear." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And the fear is a signal that something's wrong." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that one. And you know, I mean I think it's it's interesting because I think at the end of the price of tomorrow, I mean I I mean I I wouldn't even really" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "categorize it almost as like a Bitcoin book. And now obviously you're a full-fledged Bitcoin maxi, I would say you know, definitely at the forefront >> I'm a I'm a big maxi. Yeah, so" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "you know, how would you say that your I guess the more time you've spent in this community like just like you said being able to unlock more ideas giving you more time to think about this stuff. How" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "would you say your ideals of not only the world but what's going on with AI all of these different things, has that changed any since you wrote that book originally? For sure. The at the end of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "the book no, I was buying a bunch of Bitcoins through writing the book because I saw no essentially I realized that a system problem couldn't resolve a system problem." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But we were the problem inside that system. So unless you got out of that system and created something something else. And so I did a lot of work on Bitcoin while I was writing that and because" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "because as I understood the system system problem and how how technology would only accelerate the system problem and accelerate us inside the system problem the thinking it's somebody else. That's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "that's what I wrote about, right? And I it took my breath away. And that's when I started investigating Bitcoin and buying Bitcoin. But I will say at the end of that book I had in my mind a 5%" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "probability that Bitcoin would fail one day." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And what was underlying that 5% probability was all of the stuff that people tell themselves even today on Bitcoin, right? Governments are going to stop it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Bad for the environment. So, that all of these other things All these narratives that that essentially did one thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Took away your agency." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Somebody else has agency over you. Every single narrative. Whether it's whether it's it's going to get hacked by quantum, whether it's it's those other people, those those people in the ivory tower" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "are smarter, better than I, and I don't have agency. And And so, once you realize that that you do have agency, you can run a node, you can protect you can add your voice to the wall that" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "protects us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And And And changes have to go through you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You start to sleep better at night, and you start to see the attack vectors for what they really are." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? They're They're mostly attack vectors trying to co-opt Bitcoin because because if Bitcoin became co-opted, then the amount of power and that comes from that zero-sum game, the whole way the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "world works today, wouldn't work that way. It would look more abundant. It would look truthful." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It would look hopeful. It would look abundant. And so, you understand how much um pressure Bitcoin's going to come in under, but you also can activate your agency into the thing that protects against it, and you see it" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "for what it is. And so, so that that course of that learning for me was was moving moving to moving my time to this to to this was was something I didn't see right away. I didn't see that cuz you want to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "believe, \"Okay, I do all these things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's those other people.\"" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? I did, too. And then as I started to realize my own agency and what I could do, just go do things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um then then that that insulated me all the other nonsense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and uh you said 5% chance Bitcoin can fail. Do you think that that number has increased, decreased, uh and you know, obviously now quantum, you brought it up, is getting a lot of airwaves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Does that worry you at all, um you know, going forward? No. No, it doesn't because because what is the network?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "What are the nodes? It's us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so so that that that probability of a failure has gone almost to zero in uh in in my mind because I'm one of the nodes that is doing this. And then if you're one of the nodes that does" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "this, if you said let's use a different attack that isn't nearly as as a um let's use it's bad for the environment attack, which was a coordinated attack by by centralized media and everything else" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "when it's actually the best thing possible for the environment. You have a system You have one system that has to grow forever by printing money to keep us all on most wheels, rat cages faster and faster and faster" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "while it extorts us, um growing forever on a finite planet, or an or another system that's in harmony with nature and us and us can be meeting for value for each other where prices fall and we work less." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Which one's worse for the environment?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Obviously the one that's burning every single thing to try to capture it all and us and it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But when you If I had looked at that before understanding Bitcoin, I would have looked from the other lens that I didn't understand what this did, and I would have said, \"Yes, Bitcoin's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "bad for the environment.\" But once I'm in Bitcoin and I'm understanding I'm a node, all of these things, all of the nonsense, all of the the money that went in to trying to attack that, you just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "see super clearly and and Bitcoin just gets stronger from the attack. All the attack vectors make it stronger. And why does it make it stronger? Because the people in it are are driving this and other people" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "are forced to come up with their own hypocrisies on how they could fix the climate change from the system that causes climate change. And more people move, Bitcoin gets stronger." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Now take a bigger attack vector, a bigger attack. Now there isn't an expert that who understands quantum." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Otherwise, we would have we would have solved quantum and everybody would agree on the principles. And so the experts of quantum that these all different ideas of how quantum, which is so hard for our" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "brain to understand, would feel like all of the giving our agency away. All of those people must be smarter than me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And now now drive that attack into Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so so it will have to withstand that attack as well." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But even if there was a quantum threat at some point, then then I can just then and there's work being done. And I'm not even saying there is, but if there was, um the then then you would" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "you'd look at the Bitcoin improvement protocols. People would have update I would update my node because to to be able to withstand the attack." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, and I and I agree with you as well. I mean, I think like it's just new fud that that pops up every few years and you know, it's almost like a fear-mongering type of thing, but I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "mean, I think like you you're kind of saying at the end of the day the free market's going to win and Bitcoin is like a pivotal cog in that free market to say the very least, obviously, with all of the people" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "like us who are using Bitcoin on a day-to-day basis. But you said something interesting about people not I guess comprehending quantum. Um and I want to bring it back to Bitcoin and AI because I feel like people still" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "don't I guess, you know, aren't aren't able to comprehend the scarcity of Bitcoin and maybe just how much AI is going to play into the productivity boom. Do you I guess almost see similarities between the three I guess" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "technologies, protocols, where it you know It's a measurement error." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So people are measuring AI from infinite money." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "As a majority of the world and if they measured AI from what should happen with AI, they would ex- you'd expect to see a productivity miracle racing around the world um where prices were falling." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If you're measuring from Bitcoin, that's what you'll see. If you're measuring from infinite money, you'll see the opposite. You'll see a control system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so so measurement error of measuring this change it's it's super simple, right? It's like crazy simple. You could explain economics to a 5-year-old. We compete to provide more value to each other all" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "over the world." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And we only use the things that give us more value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And prices have to fall as a result because we only use the things that give us more value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So there's an open competition all over the world in service of us, which we choose to gain more value, which results in more value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if it doesn't, something's stopping that. If it doesn't, it means we've never lived in a free market." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so now just add AI or any other technology to what I just said. What does technology do?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's a tool to add more productivity." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if it if it didn't work, we wouldn't use it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So so it's really simple. So from the first free market that we've ever existed in Bitcoin, now you add a tool like AI and you should see faster value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Faster value for all all citizens of this planet." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um what would you expect to see if those citizens of the planet were operating from a ledger that was just increasing more units money?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You'd expect to see the opposite of what I just said. And then all of the people inside that there, all of the top people who had all the money would convince you and all the economists why you should live in that" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "ledger." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": ">> So So it's really simple. Like it's really simple." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "From a from from that it's not it's not but it just it just all of the abundance gained from anything we do to try to compete for value. Most of the things don't work." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "We we have an idea, I'm going to create this value. We create it and and and if it doesn't work the entrepreneur goes to zero." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Cuz we don't use it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if it works we use it because it gives us value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah. And do you think I mean obviously we've had like some more I mean 2008 crash happened. Obviously like Uber, Airbnb, all these other things kind of popped up from that. New economies kind" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "of came up. Do you see I guess AI, you know, although there's going to be, you know, job loss in maybe the short term, um more industries I guess essentially popping up out of this where it's, you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "know, kind of going to be almost creating more jobs as well. Um or how do you see Yeah. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So I see the opposite. I see the that could happen for for a period of time. Uh but it but it's unlikely to happen over a longer period of time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Again, we only use the thing because it gives us more value. Mhm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So So you could create more jobs. There is it Look at what's happening. Look at what Look what's happening and the 10 years. Government keeps getting bigger, more regulation." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Regulation protects monopolies. It doesn't protect the little guy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Protects Otherwise, you wouldn't have these giant monopolies. The regulation Monopolies favor regulation." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, um And so, government keeps getting bigger." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The jobs are all in the government sector." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? And And And these programs to hand out more money from a system that has to grow jobs against what should happen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, the jobs move somewhere else in in extractive parts of the economy rather than productive parts of the economy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, so what do you mean by the the productive parts of the economy and and all that? Well, that's what ends up happening with socialism. Okay. That's it. So, So, So, productivity effectively, when everyone" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "realizes, I don't have to compete to provide value to somebody else and I don't have a win if I provide value to somebody else, everybody sits back and waits for somebody for the government to give them money." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And then And And And productivity slows down a lot because there's no incentive for productivity." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, so do you think that I I guess in essence just people are just going to go get get lazier then because there isn't that incentive or I like I mean cuz there's always the the joke of what is" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "it? Like maybe it wasn't the Jetsons, but it's like, you know, robots are essentially just going to be able to feed us. We're just going to be fat, lazy, and just laying on our backs, you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "know, just kind of waiting for AI and the robots to do everything for us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um >> I think one of the things even kind of in the questions. I think I think, Brent, you're still measuring this No, with I know you're Bitcoiner and everything else, but you're measuring" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "overall what's going to happen from the other system. Okay. Both are going to happen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "If you're in Bitcoin today, you're already living in the free market. Mhm. Um if you um and you and you know prices are coming down over a over a long period of uh time time and you're trying to acquire more" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Bitcoin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And you can create a business to acquire more business uh uh uh uh more Bitcoin. And if you do that well, you'll acquire more and then others will compete with you. It's already emerging." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, that's one version of reality Mhm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": ">> that very small number of people in the overall percentage of the planet are already living that reality. And it's true for them because they're operating in the first free market" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "that's ever existed. And more and more people will learn over time how that feels compared to the other system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But the vast majority of our energy, and this is why the vast majority of your questions are what does the world look like? Mhm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "are from that other system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? From what will what will how much money is going to be printed tomorrow?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "What is what what is the new Fed chair do? What is this do? What is the when is when is Japan's bond market going to break? All these things, which are inevitable, all of them." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "W- And what's the what does that mean in the inevitability of the of the more printing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It means more stealing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It means more centralization. It means more people in fear and anxiety of what's going to happen. More more confusion." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "More people inside the same ecosystem that's extracting them not knowing that there's a way out." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, I mean um that makes a ton of sense. Now, uh I guess that leads me back almost to to one of our earlier conversations we've had maybe a few years ago now at this point. Maybe we're" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "dat- I'm dating myself now, Jeff. Been in the game talking to you for a little bit. But you talked to me about, you know, like uh the models uh uh essentially not being able to be or not" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "being able to model Bitcoin and AI kind of I guess based on, you know, the traditional world because it is kind of looking at it through this almost like fiat lens, I guess to put it in short." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Now, um there's obviously a lot of talk now around that the power law, how that is in nature and everything like that, um but it also says, you know, depreciating returns, all these other" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "different things. Now, because I guess there's this pattern in nature, do you see it as potentially following other patterns in nature, uh or is this just, you know, I guess Bitcoin just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "completely new and we've never seen anything like it, so it's it's still just not able to be measured in in any form of model? Yeah, so I don't know that yet. Um so so so the power law and and that work came" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "out of a book called Scale, and it's an incredible book how earthquakes and a whole bunch of other how these patterns emerge, the power laws and emerge, an incredible book. Um so the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "thing I don't know I I don't know yet is that model is still measuring it in pieces of paper. Mhm. Measuring it prices in pieces of paper." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I'm not." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? I'm because because you couldn't if you were if you were had a new measure, a new protocol that was measuring cuz what should it measure?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It should measure prices. It should measure value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Mhm. And yeah. But could it measure value if you converted it to a piece of paper to measure value? And it or or it might be able to, but then but then you'd have to ask um what is your risk of actually pricing it" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "in the piece of paper?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And would you actually stay in the protocol?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So these are these are big questions. I don't know the answer. Um but I but I don't um it it uh that work is is important work. I think that it's a it's a good it's a good model for I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "don't know if it'll hold a model that's as good as it is as predictive capacity." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and this is a very this is something we've never had before. Human humanity has never had decentralized secure protocol that is that is that meant money couldn't be cheated." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Now, I guess is there because I mean gold I mean cuz it's at the end of the day it's like how do you measure value, right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "And it seems like gold, you know, although, you know, with the manipulation and other stuff it has been able to I guess somewhat keep the value proposition for whatever you can buy for" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "an ounce of gold or at least, you know, I mean, maybe maybe I'm incorrect on that, but I I have a feeling >> You know, cuz you're missing the bigger piece." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You're missing what you can't see. So, you're measuring gold in fiat dollars and what a gold will buy a suit or a house or whatever. You'll say it's it's retained its value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "You're not asking how much would have that fallen Yeah. by by the natural productivity that would have existed in the world." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "It's something you can't even see because it's never existed. That's what I'm saying saying. The thing we can't see that's never existed is the So, now now people are trying to create" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "a measurement device or something to measure the new system that's emergent from us. And it's really hard and and that's really hard to do. It's why it's um for you've probably seen Myers-Briggs" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "type and and the type of people who rate really high 75% to get by INTP ENTP." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and those those same people are typically visionaries and founders of companies, right? And which makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "They can they can intuit a different world that would emerge if they created X." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And they can they can imagine what people would do in that different world." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But why that's so that's it's why it's such a rare part of our people that it really what is it? 2 and 1/2% of all people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Why it's so rare, most people need to see evidence of the thing that they're going to do to work and the measurement in the system. So if you looked at GDP or inflation rate, it's evidence of the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "system and it just feeds back on the and the measures become the the evidence of the system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So now trying to measure this abstract concept that is emergent and you can actually add your energy to it, your weight to it to to manifest it faster. That's hard for a lot of people. They just want to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "wait till it's already there and then they'll use it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "Yeah, I mean this is always Jeff, you always seem to blow my mind with all this stuff and I love love talk talking to you about it now. Obviously we're talking at the at the foot of Prague." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "You had a great talk at at Bitcoin Vegas about the signal through the noise, right? Finding all of that. Now if you want to give some people I guess the cliff notes of that like some of the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "I guess new revelations you had over the past maybe uh few months. Um and then maybe give a little teaser about what you think your your next Prague is going to your Prague talk is" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "going to be. I know you haven't come up with that fully yet, but I'd love to hear I guess maybe a little preview of what's on your mind here lately." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Yeah, so my I don't know if it's new information that I'm saying but but I found a way to describe what I'm seeing in me and everything else. And I and and in Bitcoin Vegas I used essentially instead" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "of starting with Bitcoin I started with us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And I I had essentially the audience imagining themselves as a point of light. And then every interaction, all the books they read, the family, friends, mom and dad, all the people that interact and because" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "you don't stay the same." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "We have stories. We have these mental models and we sell these stories and we run into people and all of a sudden we realize we can throw out that story." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um it was wrong and we we insert a better story. So we are living a combination of whole bunch of people that influence us all the time, but we don't actually recognize how much they influence us and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "us and we can't thank them. We're reading podcast we're seeing podcasts we're thing reading books. We don't those tiny little impacts that then impact us and we think differently. It's hard to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "measure that but it did matters." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Then if you go further out to your your parents or your your two parents they they went through the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Each of them coming together to to to create you. You go further back their four grandparents and and eight grandparents and all of the different combinations that kind of put a for me and it's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I almost got emotional on stage because it's very real for me is here I I think it's even on this podcast." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "This is the only moment that matters literally right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Because the past is just past it it it created this opportunity for me to be right here with you right now Brandon." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And your past did the exact same thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And we collide and and we come away both of us changed a little bit or we or we lock into our previous beliefs because we don't hear the other person for what how they're really looking at it. And that's how the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "world kind of move moves forward, but we're not very often in the present." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "We have these models of our past." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "My parents did this to me, so I always do this, right? Or the this happened to me, so I always do. So, we don't stay we don't take this and we don't as curious as we might want to be" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "into the moment of all of these collisions and what value we can create." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, this is the literally the only moment that matters." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But, I observe other I observe others carrying a story that no longer works for them, but they still want to carry the story because it's their identity." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So, that's what So, and then I connected that what would that look like to an observer going through this really chaotic change." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And if you the first observer I used is credit money, right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And I was this observer. I thought I lived in a free market. I had no idea what credit money was. I had no idea that money was lent into existence. So, I understand that observer and and them" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "reinforcing. And then I asked, what would what would the view back to them be from that credit money? And and you could see all the downstream consequences from that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and then and then I went through the different observers and through altcoins and everything else and and whether you saw it as a store value or you saw it as a protocol." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Um and these are just us bumping into each other." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "8 billion of us bumping into each other in what has to be a chaotic transition from something that didn't doesn't work, a zero-sum game, to an infinite game." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so, um once you see once you see that, you don't you don't describe blame everything else because some of the bad things, too, that some of the the the they to be a part of me too." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Right? The things I made mistakes on, the uh they they the something I learned from somebody showing the opposite of what I wanted to do. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "The uh and so now now you just see, okay, this is this just is." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "This is how it's going to look." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And and and you start to know yourself and you start to where do I want to spend time?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "So that was that was that and and again that's not it wasn't new information. It was it was a I found a way to deliver it in in in something that's very real for me, like very real for me. Almost uh" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "when I said the emotion the emotion comes from not being able to thank all of the people who contributed to who I am today." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "That." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "And and one thing that I love about, you know, hearing you speak. I mean I think I've heard you speak on a few different uh conferences giving keynotes. And I always feel like you give it your all," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "you know, you always have that that raw emotion on stage. Um so do you have a a little bit of an idea of maybe like continuation for that for for Prague and kind of the talk that you gave at Vegas" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "or are you going to surprise us with something that you haven't uh haven't given just yet? Do you do you have a Do you have a little thought there or I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": ">> I have no I have no idea. I I know this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "I'm really looking forward to Prague because uh because even in Vegas I went and I went on one condition that I could talk about what I really thought about this. I'd actually hadn't gone to Vegas for last 3 years or" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "any of the Bitcoin conferences because it felt like it was too captured." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "But but inside inside a bunch of the people there. There's tons of incredible people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "And so I'm glad I'm glad I went. I'm glad I gave the speech. One things I'm really looking forward to Prague, it's my first time in Prague, is yeah, as I understand it, the people that go to Prague are more" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "text": "Bitcoin only. They're they're deeper they they're deeper into their journey and stuff. So I and and I just know how many friends of mine that are going." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "It's going to be It's going to be incredible. Yeah, it's going to be amazing. I think you're going to love it. I've went last year and it's one of my favorite conferences. I think I went" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "to like eight conferences last year and and Prague definitely stands out. So I'm super excited to see you and I think we're we're going to be staying sharing the stage on at least one panel. So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "excited for all that and yeah, Jeff, thanks so much. I guess if you've got a book or something else coming out that you want to tell people to look out for in the future, free feel" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "let the people know and if not, I guess I'll see us in Prague. We will see you in Prague." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "text": "All right, thanks Jeff." } ]