[
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "For us, the end goal is to replace For us, the end goal is to replace"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "coding with something much better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I coding with something much better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I coding with something much better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "think that this is going to be a decade think that this is going to be a decade think that this is going to be a decade"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where just your ability to build will be where just your ability to build will be where just your ability to build will be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so magnified"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If you keep pushing the so magnified"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If you keep pushing the so magnified"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "If you keep pushing the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "frontier faster than other people, you frontier faster than other people, you frontier faster than other people, you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can get really big gains occurring to can get really big gains occurring to can get really big gains occurring to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Building a company's hard and so you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Building a company's hard and so you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Building a company's hard and so"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you may as well work on the thing that you may as well work on the thing that you may as well work on the thing that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you're really excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so you're really excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so you're really excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "yeah, we set off to work on uh the yeah, we set off to work on uh the yeah, we set off to work on uh the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "future of code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Welcome back to another episode of How Welcome back to another episode of How"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to Build the Future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Today I'm joined by to Build the Future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Today I'm joined by to Build the Future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Today I'm joined by"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Michael Tru, co-founder and CEO of Michael Tru, co-founder and CEO of Michael Tru, co-founder and CEO of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Anyphere, the company behind Cursor, the Anyphere, the company behind Cursor, the Anyphere, the company behind Cursor, the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "AI coding platform we all know and love"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "AI coding platform we all know and love"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "AI coding platform we all know and love"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They recently hit a $9 billion valuation They recently hit a $9 billion valuation They recently hit a $9 billion valuation"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and are one of the fastest growing and are one of the fastest growing and are one of the fastest growing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "startups of all time, reaching a hundred startups of all time, reaching a hundred startups of all time, reaching a hundred"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "million ARR just 20 months after million ARR just 20 months after million ARR just 20 months after"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Michael, thanks for joining launching"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Michael, thanks for joining launching"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Michael, thanks for joining"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Thank you for having me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Excited to us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Thank you for having me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Excited to us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Thank you for having me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You've said the goal of cursor be here"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You've said the goal of cursor be here"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You've said the goal of cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "is to actually invent a new type of is to actually invent a new type of is to actually invent a new type of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "programming uh where you can just programming uh where you can just programming uh where you can just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "describe what you want and it gets describe what you want and it gets describe what you want and it gets"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Talk to me about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Yeah, the built"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Talk to me about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Yeah, the built"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Talk to me about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "goal with the company is to replace goal with the company is to replace goal with the company is to replace"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "coding with something that's much coding with something that's much coding with something that's much"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Me and my three co-founders, better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Me and my three co-founders, better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Me and my three co-founders,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we've been programmers for a long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we've been programmers for a long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we've been programmers for a long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "More than anything, that's what we are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "More than anything, that's what we are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "More than anything, that's what we are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The thing that attracted us to coding is The thing that attracted us to coding is The thing that attracted us to coding is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that you get to build things really that you get to build things really that you get to build things really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to do things that are sort of quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to do things that are sort of quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to do things that are sort of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Coding requires simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Coding requires simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Coding requires"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "editing you know millions of lines of editing you know millions of lines of editing you know millions of lines of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "kind of esoteric formal programming kind of esoteric formal programming kind of esoteric formal programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "languages uh requires you know doing languages uh requires you know doing languages uh requires you know doing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "lots and lots of labor to actually make lots and lots of labor to actually make lots and lots of labor to actually make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "things show up on the screen that are things show up on the screen that are things show up on the screen that are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We think kind of simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We think kind of simple to describe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that over the next 5 to 10 years it will that over the next 5 to 10 years it will that over the next 5 to 10 years it will"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "be possible to invent a new way to build be possible to invent a new way to build be possible to invent a new way to build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software that's higher level and more software that's higher level and more software that's higher level and more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "productive that's just still down to productive that's just still down to productive that's just still down to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "defining how you want the software to defining how you want the software to defining how you want the software to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "work and how you want the software to work and how you want the software to work and how you want the software to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so our goal with cursor uh is look"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so our goal with cursor uh is look"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so our goal with cursor uh is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to get there and you know our path to to get there and you know our path to to get there and you know our path to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "getting there is to at any given point getting there is to at any given point getting there is to at any given point"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "in time always be the best way to code in time always be the best way to code in time always be the best way to code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "with AI and then evolve that process uh with AI and then evolve that process uh with AI and then evolve that process uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you know evolve it away from normal you know evolve it away from normal you know evolve it away from normal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "programming to something that looks very programming to something that looks very programming to something that looks very"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So some people would say that different"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So some people would say that different"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So some people would say that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "is what we have today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You sort of is what we have today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You sort of is what we have today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You sort of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "describe what you want and out it comes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "describe what you want and out it comes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "describe what you want and out it comes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "What would you say to that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Like are we What would you say to that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Like are we What would you say to that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Like are we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know what are the steps there yet"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know what are the steps there yet"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know what are the steps"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to where you really want to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We're to where you really want to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We're to where you really want to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "seeing the first signs of things really seeing the first signs of things really seeing the first signs of things really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um I think you guys are changing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um I think you guys are changing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um I think you guys are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "probably on the forefront of it with YC probably on the forefront of it with YC probably on the forefront of it with YC"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "because I think that in smaller code because I think that in smaller code because I think that in smaller code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "bases with smaller groups of people bases with smaller groups of people bases with smaller groups of people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "working on a piece of software that's working on a piece of software that's working on a piece of software that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where you feel the change the most where you feel the change the most where you feel the change the most"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "already there we see people kind of already there we see people kind of already there we see people kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "stepping up above the code to a higher stepping up above the code to a higher stepping up above the code to a higher"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "level of abstraction and just asking uh level of abstraction and just asking uh level of abstraction and just asking uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "essentially agents uh and AIS to make essentially agents uh and AIS to make essentially agents uh and AIS to make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "all the changes for them in the all the changes for them in the all the changes for them in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "professional world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think there's professional world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think there's professional world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think there's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "still a ways to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that the still a ways to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that the still a ways to go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "whole idea of kind of vibe coding or whole idea of kind of vibe coding or whole idea of kind of vibe coding or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "coding without really looking at the coding without really looking at the coding without really looking at the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "code and understanding it it doesn't code and understanding it it doesn't code and understanding it it doesn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "really work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There are lots of nth order really work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There are lots of nth order really work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There are lots of nth order"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, if you're dealing effects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, if you're dealing effects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, if you're dealing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "with millions of lines of code and with millions of lines of code and with millions of lines of code and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "dozens or hundreds of people working on dozens or hundreds of people working on dozens or hundreds of people working on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "something over the course of many years, something over the course of many years, something over the course of many years,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "uh right now, you can't really just uh right now, you can't really just uh right now, you can't really just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "avoid thinking about the code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Our avoid thinking about the code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Our avoid thinking about the code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "primary focus is to help professional primary focus is to help professional primary focus is to help professional"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "programmers to help people who build programmers to help people who build programmers to help people who build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software for a living"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "In those software for a living"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "In those software for a living"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "environments, people are more and more environments, people are more and more environments, people are more and more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "using AI to code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, on average, using AI to code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, on average, using AI to code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, on average,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we see about people using, you know, we see about people using, you know, we see about people using, you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "having AI write 40% 50% of the lines of having AI write 40% 50% of the lines of having AI write 40% 50% of the lines of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "code produced within cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But it's code produced within cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But it's code produced within cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "still a process of you know reading still a process of you know reading still a process of you know reading"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "everything that comes out of the AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And everything that comes out of the AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And everything that comes out of the AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so an important chasm for us to cross as so an important chasm for us to cross as so an important chasm for us to cross as"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a product will be getting to a place a product will be getting to a place a product will be getting to a place"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where uh you know we become less of a where uh you know we become less of a where uh you know we become less of a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "productivity tool that's helping you productivity tool that's helping you productivity tool that's helping you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "look at read write understand code and look at read write understand code and look at read write understand code and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where the artifact kind of changes and I where the artifact kind of changes and I where the artifact kind of changes and I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think for professional developers think for professional developers think for professional developers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "there's still a ways to go there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "In there's still a ways to go there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "In there's still a ways to go there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "your head do you think of it as uh like your head do you think of it as uh like your head do you think of it as uh like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "different tiers there sort of obviously different tiers there sort of obviously different tiers there sort of obviously"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "startups are starting out with zero startups are starting out with zero startups are starting out with zero"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "lines of code so that's very easy"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Is lines of code so that's very easy"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Is lines of code so that's very easy"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "there a point that you're tracking right there a point that you're tracking right there a point that you're tracking right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "now where oh well that's when you know now where oh well that's when you know now where oh well that's when you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just vibe coding it stops working and just vibe coding it stops working and just vibe coding it stops working and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that's when things sort of become real"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that's when things sort of become real"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that's when things sort of become real"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The vibe coding style of things is The vibe coding style of things is The vibe coding style of things is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "definitely not something that we definitely not something that we definitely not something that we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "recommend if you're going to have the recommend if you're going to have the recommend if you're going to have the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "code stay around for a really long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "code stay around for a really long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "code stay around for a really long time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that one of the things that I think that one of the things that I think that one of the things that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "characterizes software development when characterizes software development when characterizes software development when"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you're two three person four person you're two three person four person you're two three person four person"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "startup and you're kind of moving around startup and you're kind of moving around startup and you're kind of moving around"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and trying to figure out what you're and trying to figure out what you're and trying to figure out what you're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "doing is often the code is only going to doing is often the code is only going to doing is often the code is only going to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "be around for for weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Right now we're be around for for weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Right now we're be around for for weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Right now we're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "in this phase where um AI is kind of in this phase where um AI is kind of in this phase where um AI is kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "operating as a helper for you, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So operating as a helper for you, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So operating as a helper for you, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of like the main ways in which kind of like the main ways in which kind of like the main ways in which"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people are using AI to code, they're people are using AI to code, they're people are using AI to code, they're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "either delegating tasks to an AI and either delegating tasks to an AI and either delegating tasks to an AI and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "they're saying, \"Go do this thing for they're saying, \"Go do this thing for they're saying, \"Go do this thing for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Go answer this question for me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Go answer this question for me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Go answer this question for me"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they have an AI looking over their they have an AI looking over their they have an AI looking over their"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "shoulder and taking over the keyboard shoulder and taking over the keyboard shoulder and taking over the keyboard"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "every once in a while"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That's kind of every once in a while"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That's kind of every once in a while"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That's kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the tap form factor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think that the tap form factor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think that the tap form factor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the game in the next 6 months to a year the game in the next 6 months to a year the game in the next 6 months to a year"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "is to make both of those, you know, an is to make both of those, you know, an is to make both of those, you know, an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "order of magnitude more useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "coding order of magnitude more useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "coding order of magnitude more useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "sometimes is incredibly predictable when sometimes is incredibly predictable when sometimes is incredibly predictable when"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you're just looking over someone's you're just looking over someone's you're just looking over someone's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "shoulder, you know, the next 10, 15, 20 shoulder, you know, the next 10, 15, 20 shoulder, you know, the next 10, 15, 20"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "minutes of their work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and so the minutes of their work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and so the minutes of their work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and so the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "tab form factor can go very far"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And tab form factor can go very far"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And tab form factor can go very far"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "then the agent form factor of delegating then the agent form factor of delegating then the agent form factor of delegating"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to another human can go very far too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to another human can go very far too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to another human can go very far too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then I think that once those start And then I think that once those start And then I think that once those start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to get mature and you know for 25 30% of to get mature and you know for 25 30% of to get mature and you know for 25 30% of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "professional development, you can just professional development, you can just professional development, you can just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "entirely lean on those end to end entirely lean on those end to end entirely lean on those end to end"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "without really looking at things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Then without really looking at things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Then without really looking at things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "there will be all of these other things there will be all of these other things there will be all of these other things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to figure out about how you make that to figure out about how you make that to figure out about how you make that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "work in the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One way in which work in the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "One way in which work in the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "One way in which"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you can view LMS is their view you you can view LMS is their view you you can view LMS is their view you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "interface with them like a human like a interface with them like a human like a interface with them like a human like a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um another way in which you can helper"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um another way in which you can helper"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um another way in which you can"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "view LMS is they're kind of an advanc view LMS is they're kind of an advanc view LMS is they're kind of an advanc"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and compiler or interpreter technology"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and compiler or interpreter technology"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and compiler or interpreter technology"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's going to be always helpful if we It's going to be always helpful if we It's going to be always helpful if we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "are a tool to help a human go from an are a tool to help a human go from an are a tool to help a human go from an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "idea in their head to something on the idea in their head to something on the idea in their head to something on the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "screen to give people uh control over screen to give people uh control over screen to give people uh control over"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the finest details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That's one of the finest details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That's one of the finest details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That's one of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the product challenges we have in front the product challenges we have in front the product challenges we have in front"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of us is you should always be able to of us is you should always be able to of us is you should always be able to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "move something a few pixels over"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You move something a few pixels over"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You move something a few pixels over"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "should always be able to edit something should always be able to edit something should always be able to edit something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "very specific about the logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think very specific about the logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think very specific about the logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "one useful UI always to have there is to one useful UI always to have there is to one useful UI always to have there is to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have written down the logic of the have written down the logic of the have written down the logic of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software um and you can you know point software um and you can you know point software um and you can you know point"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "at various bits of the logic and and at various bits of the logic and and at various bits of the logic and and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "actually edit them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But um if we were to actually edit them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But um if we were to actually edit them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But um if we were to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "get to a place where you don't have to get to a place where you don't have to get to a place where you don't have to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "pay attention to the code as much you pay attention to the code as much you pay attention to the code as much you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know that written down version of the know that written down version of the know that written down version of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "logic of the software is going to have logic of the software is going to have logic of the software is going to have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to get higher level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so yeah we're to get higher level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so yeah we're to get higher level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so yeah we're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "excited about you know after you get excited about you know after you get excited about you know after you get"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "agents working after you get kind of the agents working after you get kind of the agents working after you get kind of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "tab form factor very mature does AI tab form factor very mature does AI tab form factor very mature does AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually evolve what a what it means to actually evolve what a what it means to actually evolve what a what it means to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "be writing and looking at a programming be writing and looking at a programming be writing and looking at a programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Is it a context window thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Is it a context window thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Is it a context window thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, it sort of makes sense that You know, it sort of makes sense that You know, it sort of makes sense that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "well, once you get past about a million well, once you get past about a million well, once you get past about a million"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to two million tokens, only even in the to two million tokens, only even in the to two million tokens, only even in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I feel like the last 100 days did we get I feel like the last 100 days did we get I feel like the last 100 days did we get"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a usable 2 million token length"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Is that a usable 2 million token length"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Is that a usable 2 million token length"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "naturally one of the places where once naturally one of the places where once naturally one of the places where once"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "your code base reaches a certain size, your code base reaches a certain size, your code base reaches a certain size,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know, you got to use rag, it has you know, you got to use rag, it has you know, you got to use rag, it has"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "incomplete context, and then it just incomplete context, and then it just incomplete context, and then it just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can't do what uh a human coder could do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can't do what uh a human coder could do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can't do what uh a human coder could do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Yeah, I think that there are a bunch of Yeah, I think that there are a bunch of Yeah, I think that there are a bunch of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "bottlenecks to agents being human level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "bottlenecks to agents being human level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "bottlenecks to agents being human level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think one is context window side of I think one is context window side of I think one is context window side of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "things is definitely uh an issue where things is definitely uh an issue where things is definitely uh an issue where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know if you have 10 million lines of you know if you have 10 million lines of you know if you have 10 million lines of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "code that's you know maybe 100 million code that's you know maybe 100 million code that's you know maybe 100 million"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "tokens um and both having a model that tokens um and both having a model that tokens um and both having a model that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can actually ingest that having it be can actually ingest that having it be can actually ingest that having it be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "cost effective and then not just having cost effective and then not just having cost effective and then not just having"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a model that can physically ingest that a model that can physically ingest that a model that can physically ingest that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "into its weights but also one that into its weights but also one that into its weights but also one that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "actually pays attention effectively to actually pays attention effectively to actually pays attention effectively to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that context window is tricky and I that context window is tricky and I that context window is tricky and I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "think that that's something that the think that that's something that the think that that's something that the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "field needs to grapple with and it's not field needs to grapple with and it's not field needs to grapple with and it's not"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just a codebased thing there it's also just a codebased thing there it's also just a codebased thing there it's also"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just a continual learning problem of you just a continual learning problem of you just a continual learning problem of you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know knowing knowing the context of the know knowing knowing the context of the know knowing knowing the context of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "organization and things that have been organization and things that have been organization and things that have been"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "tried in the past and who your tried in the past and who your tried in the past and who your"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "co-workers are and that uh problem of co-workers are and that uh problem of co-workers are and that uh problem of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "having uh you know a model really having uh you know a model really having uh you know a model really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "continually learn something kind of continually learn something kind of continually learn something kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "something that the field I think still something that the field I think still something that the field I think still"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "doesn't really have a great solution to doesn't really have a great solution to doesn't really have a great solution to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "like it has always been suspected that like it has always been suspected that like it has always been suspected that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "it will be or for a lot of people have it will be or for a lot of people have it will be or for a lot of people have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "suspected you just make the context suspected you just make the context suspected you just make the context"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "window infinite and that ends up working window infinite and that ends up working window infinite and that ends up working"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that there's a der of out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that there's a der of out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that there's a der of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "really good long context data uh really good long context data uh really good long context data uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "available to the institutions that are available to the institutions that are available to the institutions that are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "training these models and so I think training these models and so I think training these models and so I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that that will be tricky but continual that that will be tricky but continual that that will be tricky but continual"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "learning and long context is definitely learning and long context is definitely learning and long context is definitely"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a bottleneck to being superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's a bottleneck to being superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's a bottleneck to being superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of related, but being able to do kind of related, but being able to do kind of related, but being able to do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "tasks over very long time horizons and tasks over very long time horizons and tasks over very long time horizons and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "continue making forward progress"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Going continue making forward progress"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Going continue making forward progress"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "around on the internet, there's this around on the internet, there's this around on the internet, there's this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "amazing chart of progress in the last amazing chart of progress in the last amazing chart of progress in the last"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "year or two on the max length of time an year or two on the max length of time an year or two on the max length of time an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "AI can make forward progress on a task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "AI can make forward progress on a task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "AI can make forward progress on a task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And it's gone up from, you know, seconds And it's gone up from, you know, seconds And it's gone up from, you know, seconds"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to I think I I don't know the details of to I think I I don't know the details of to I think I I don't know the details of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "how these numbers are actually gotten, how these numbers are actually gotten, how these numbers are actually gotten,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "but I think someone's claiming some of but I think someone's claiming some of but I think someone's claiming some of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the latest models it's like an hour"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the latest models it's like an hour"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the latest models it's like an hour"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Then there are problems with different Then there are problems with different Then there are problems with different"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So to be a software modalities"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So to be a software modalities"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So to be a software"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "engineer, you kind of need to run the engineer, you kind of need to run the engineer, you kind of need to run the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "code and then play with the output"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If code and then play with the output"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If code and then play with the output"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you didn't, you would be way superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you didn't, you would be way superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you didn't, you would be way superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That would be insane"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But so computer That would be insane"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But so computer That would be insane"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But so computer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "using is kind of is is going to be using is kind of is is going to be using is kind of is is going to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "important for the future of code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Being important for the future of code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Being important for the future of code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "able to run the code, being able to look able to run the code, being able to look able to run the code, being able to look"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "at data dog logs and interface with with at data dog logs and interface with with at data dog logs and interface with with"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "those tools that humans use"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There are a those tools that humans use"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There are a those tools that humans use"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There are a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "lot of known devils that we will have to lot of known devils that we will have to lot of known devils that we will have to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "face and then a lot of unknown devils face and then a lot of unknown devils face and then a lot of unknown devils"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that we will have to face in you know uh that we will have to face in you know uh that we will have to face in you know uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the task of making coding agents the task of making coding agents the task of making coding agents"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then you know one thing superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then you know one thing superhuman"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then you know one thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I will note kind of hearkening back to a I will note kind of hearkening back to a I will note kind of hearkening back to a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "last response is that even if you had last response is that even if you had last response is that even if you had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "something you could talk to that was something you could talk to that was something you could talk to that was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "human level at coding or faster and human level at coding or faster and human level at coding or faster and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "better better than a human at coding you better better than a human at coding you better better than a human at coding you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know sort of the skill of an entire know sort of the skill of an entire know sort of the skill of an entire"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "engineering department I think that the engineering department I think that the engineering department I think that the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "UI of just having a text box asking for UI of just having a text box asking for UI of just having a text box asking for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a change of the software is imprecise a change of the software is imprecise a change of the software is imprecise"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and so even in the limit if you care and so even in the limit if you care and so even in the limit if you care"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about humans being able to control what about humans being able to control what about humans being able to control what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "shows up on the screen you'll need a shows up on the screen you'll need a shows up on the screen you'll need a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "different way for them to interface and different way for them to interface and different way for them to interface and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "so one potential UI there is you know an so one potential UI there is you know an so one potential UI there is you know an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "evolution of programming languages to be evolution of programming languages to be evolution of programming languages to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "something that's higher level another is something that's higher level another is something that's higher level another is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "maybe direct manipulation of the UI, maybe direct manipulation of the UI, maybe direct manipulation of the UI,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Being able to point at things on right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Being able to point at things on right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Being able to point at things on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the screen and say, \"Oh, change this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "\" the screen and say, \"Oh, change this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "\" the screen and say, \"Oh, change this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Or actually kind of finick with the Or actually kind of finick with the Or actually kind of finick with the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "values yourself"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, that values yourself"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, that values yourself"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "seems like a a bunch of things that are seems like a a bunch of things that are seems like a a bunch of things that are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of just nent in the wings, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of just nent in the wings, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "kind of just nent in the wings, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Like uh the models don't seem to have a Like uh the models don't seem to have a Like uh the models don't seem to have a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "really clear sense for aesthetics for really clear sense for aesthetics for really clear sense for aesthetics for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so the idea that maybe instance"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so the idea that maybe instance"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so the idea that maybe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "this human level designer needs to this human level designer needs to this human level designer needs to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually, you know, be able to they need actually, you know, be able to they need actually, you know, be able to they need"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to be able to see actually"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And to be able to see actually"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And to be able to see actually"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it's been interesting seeing them it's been interesting seeing them it's been interesting seeing them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "improve at the aesthetic side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "improve at the aesthetic side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "improve at the aesthetic side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And I think that that's actually like an And I think that that's actually like an And I think that that's actually like an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "interesting specific example about how interesting specific example about how interesting specific example about how"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we've hacked around these continual we've hacked around these continual we've hacked around these continual"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "learning problems"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But our understanding learning problems"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But our understanding learning problems"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But our understanding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "is that you know the way you teach these is that you know the way you teach these is that you know the way you teach these"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "models to be better at something like models to be better at something like models to be better at something like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "aesthetics is not in the way you would a aesthetics is not in the way you would a aesthetics is not in the way you would a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It is by you know basically human"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It is by you know basically human"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It is by you know basically"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "collecting a bunch of data doing RL on collecting a bunch of data doing RL on collecting a bunch of data doing RL on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um and that's like how you've them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and that's like how you've them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and that's like how you've"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "taught at that task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And that's a a task taught at that task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And that's a a task taught at that task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And that's a a task"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that enough people care about that you that enough people care about that you that enough people care about that you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can pay the cost to do all of that and can pay the cost to do all of that and can pay the cost to do all of that and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you can go and train and have it into you can go and train and have it into you can go and train and have it into"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "sort of baked into the base model"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "sort of baked into the base model"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "sort of baked into the base model"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "um it's kind of a hack around the um it's kind of a hack around the um it's kind of a hack around the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "continual learning problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So given continual learning problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So given continual learning problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "this sort of future that everyone's this sort of future that everyone's this sort of future that everyone's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "building towards and you're certainly a building towards and you're certainly a building towards and you're certainly a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "leader at the forefront of it, you know, leader at the forefront of it, you know, leader at the forefront of it, you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "what do you think uh will be what do you think uh will be what do you think uh will be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "irreplaceable or like sort of the irreplaceable or like sort of the irreplaceable or like sort of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "essential pieces of being a software essential pieces of being a software essential pieces of being a software"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "engineer in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We think that engineer in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We think that engineer in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "one thing that will be irreplaceable is one thing that will be irreplaceable is one thing that will be irreplaceable is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So just defining what what do you taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So just defining what what do you taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So just defining what what do you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually want to build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "People usually actually want to build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "People usually actually want to build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "People usually"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think about this when they're thinking think about this when they're thinking think about this when they're thinking"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about the visual aspects of software"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I about the visual aspects of software"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I about the visual aspects of software"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "think it's also there's a taste think it's also there's a taste think it's also there's a taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "component to the non-visual aspects of component to the non-visual aspects of component to the non-visual aspects of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software too about how the logic works"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software too about how the logic works"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "software too about how the logic works"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And right now the act of programming And right now the act of programming And right now the act of programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "kind of bundles up you figuring out how kind of bundles up you figuring out how kind of bundles up you figuring out how"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "exactly you you want the thing to work exactly you you want the thing to work exactly you you want the thing to work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "like what product you're really defining like what product you're really defining like what product you're really defining"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "with the logic that you're writing and with the logic that you're writing and with the logic that you're writing and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the kind of high level taste of the the kind of high level taste of the the kind of high level taste of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "implementation details of how that maps implementation details of how that maps implementation details of how that maps"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "onto a physical computer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But then right onto a physical computer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But then right onto a physical computer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But then right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "now a lot of programming is kind of this now a lot of programming is kind of this now a lot of programming is kind of this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "human compilation that you're doing human compilation that you're doing human compilation that you're doing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where you kind of know what you want"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where you kind of know what you want"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where you kind of know what you want"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You could tell it to another human You could tell it to another human You could tell it to another human"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "being, but you really have to spell it being, but you really have to spell it being, but you really have to spell it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "out for the computer because the out for the computer because the out for the computer because the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "language that you can you have to language that you can you have to language that you can you have to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "describe things to a computer is for describe things to a computer is for describe things to a computer is for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "normal programming just you know for normal programming just you know for normal programming just you know for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "loops and if statements and variables loops and if statements and variables loops and if statements and variables"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and methods and u you really have to and methods and u you really have to and methods and u you really have to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have to spell it out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so I think have to spell it out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so I think have to spell it out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that more and more of that like human that more and more of that like human that more and more of that like human"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "compilation step will go away and compilation step will go away and compilation step will go away and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "computers will be able to kind of fill computers will be able to kind of fill computers will be able to kind of fill"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "in the gaps, fill in the details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But in the gaps, fill in the details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But in the gaps, fill in the details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "since we, you know, are a tool that's since we, you know, are a tool that's since we, you know, are a tool that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that's helping you make things happen, that's helping you make things happen, that's helping you make things happen,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "helping you build things, that kind of helping you build things, that kind of helping you build things, that kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "taste for what what is actually useful taste for what what is actually useful taste for what what is actually useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "for what you want to build, I don't for what you want to build, I don't for what you want to build, I don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think will ever go away"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That makes think will ever go away"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That makes think will ever go away"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I it there's that quote, good sense"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I it there's that quote, good sense"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I it there's that quote, good"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people will uh help you hit, you know, people will uh help you hit, you know, people will uh help you hit, you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "this bar, but the truly great, the truly this bar, but the truly great, the truly this bar, but the truly great, the truly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "masterful, they uh, you know, hit a bar masterful, they uh, you know, hit a bar masterful, they uh, you know, hit a bar"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that you can't even see"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, and that you can't even see"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, and that you can't even see"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that requires taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You've called it that requires taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You've called it that requires taste"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You've called it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "sort of people need to become logic sort of people need to become logic sort of people need to become logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, what does that mean designers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, what does that mean designers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know, what does that mean"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "in terms of, you know, intent driven in terms of, you know, intent driven in terms of, you know, intent driven"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "As this tech matures more programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "As this tech matures more programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "As this tech matures more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and more, as we get closer to a world and more, as we get closer to a world and more, as we get closer to a world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where programming can be automated and where programming can be automated and where programming can be automated and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can be replaced with a better way of can be replaced with a better way of can be replaced with a better way of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "building software, I think there are a building software, I think there are a building software, I think there are a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "bunch of implications"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think one is bunch of implications"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think one is bunch of implications"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think one is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that, you know, professional devs will that, you know, professional devs will that, you know, professional devs will"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just get so much more productive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's just get so much more productive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's just get so much more productive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just crazy how slow thousand people just crazy how slow thousand people just crazy how slow thousand people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "software projects move"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And 100 software projects move"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And 100 software projects move"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people software projects move and real people software projects move and real people software projects move and real"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of professional software projects kind of professional software projects kind of professional software projects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, and a lot of that comes down move"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and a lot of that comes down move"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and a lot of that comes down"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to the the weight of the existing logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to the the weight of the existing logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to the the weight of the existing logic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Just kind of getting the best of you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Just kind of getting the best of you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Just kind of getting the best of you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When you're in a new codebase, you can When you're in a new codebase, you can When you're in a new codebase, you can"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "start from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You can do things start from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You can do things start from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You can do things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "very quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When you change something, very quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "When you change something, very quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "When you change something,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "there's not a bunch of other things that there's not a bunch of other things that there's not a bunch of other things that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "then break that you need to to fix"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I then break that you need to to fix"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I then break that you need to to fix"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think that one of the implications of it think that one of the implications of it think that one of the implications of it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "will be that you know the next will be that you know the next will be that you know the next"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "distributed training framework or the distributed training framework or the distributed training framework or the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you know the next database or the next you know the next database or the next you know the next database or the next"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "uh visual design tool will just be way uh visual design tool will just be way uh visual design tool will just be way"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "faster to build the next AI model which faster to build the next AI model which faster to build the next AI model which"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know if you talk to the labs largely you know if you talk to the labs largely you know if you talk to the labs largely"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they're bottlenecked on engineering they're bottlenecked on engineering they're bottlenecked on engineering"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "capacity I think all of that will just capacity I think all of that will just capacity I think all of that will just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just improve a ton"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that you just improve a ton"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that you just improve a ton"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know one second order effect two will be know one second order effect two will be know one second order effect two will be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "many more pieces of niche software will many more pieces of niche software will many more pieces of niche software will"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One of my first jobs actually was exist"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One of my first jobs actually was exist"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One of my first jobs actually was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "working for a biotech company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, and working for a biotech company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, and working for a biotech company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "it was a company staffed by wet lab it was a company staffed by wet lab it was a company staffed by wet lab"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "They were developing drugs scientists"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "They were developing drugs scientists"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They were developing drugs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to to cure cure diseases"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And I was the to to cure cure diseases"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I was the to to cure cure diseases"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I was the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "first software engineer hired and they first software engineer hired and they first software engineer hired and they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "were generating massive amounts of were generating massive amounts of were generating massive amounts of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "chemicals and then putting them through chemicals and then putting them through chemicals and then putting them through"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "these biological experiments and then these biological experiments and then these biological experiments and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "they needed a readout to kind of figure they needed a readout to kind of figure they needed a readout to kind of figure"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "out which which chemicals to then pursue out which which chemicals to then pursue out which which chemicals to then pursue"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And they needed a ton of just further"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And they needed a ton of just further"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And they needed a ton of just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "internal software development to do internal software development to do internal software development to do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And uh it was amazing both looking that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And uh it was amazing both looking that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And uh it was amazing both looking"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "at the uh exist existing tools off the at the uh exist existing tools off the at the uh exist existing tools off the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "shelf just how bad they were and then it shelf just how bad they were and then it shelf just how bad they were and then it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was crazy to think that this company for was crazy to think that this company for was crazy to think that this company for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "whom software was not their core whom software was not their core whom software was not their core"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "competency had to go out and do this competency had to go out and do this competency had to go out and do this"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "crazy laborious thing of hiring a real crazy laborious thing of hiring a real crazy laborious thing of hiring a real"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software engineering team and training software engineering team and training software engineering team and training"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "them up and um having them do internal them up and um having them do internal them up and um having them do internal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "product development and for companies product development and for companies product development and for companies"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "like uh like that company uh there will like uh like that company uh there will like uh like that company uh there will"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just be many more options available to just be many more options available to just be many more options available to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The physics of digital space them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The physics of digital space them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The physics of digital space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "already are so great, but I think that already are so great, but I think that already are so great, but I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that's just going to, you know, get that's just going to, you know, get that's just going to, you know, get"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "turned up many notches into the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "turned up many notches into the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "turned up many notches into the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Things that you want to want to happen Things that you want to want to happen Things that you want to want to happen"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "on computers will then just kind of be on computers will then just kind of be on computers will then just kind of be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "able to happen"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Switching gears, like I able to happen"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Switching gears, like I able to happen"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Switching gears, like I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "wanted to hear about the early days of wanted to hear about the early days of wanted to hear about the early days of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You met your co-founders uh cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You met your co-founders uh cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You met your co-founders uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Swale, Arvid, and Aman um at MIT and Swale, Arvid, and Aman um at MIT and Swale, Arvid, and Aman um at MIT and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "this company started in 2022"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What drew this company started in 2022"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What drew this company started in 2022"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you together and when did you realize uh you together and when did you realize uh you together and when did you realize uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "this was a team that could build this was a team that could build this was a team that could build"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "something really ambitious together"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I something really ambitious together"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I something really ambitious together"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think we had a lot of youthful naivee"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think we had a lot of youthful naivee"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think we had a lot of youthful naivee"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "think probably unjustified at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think probably unjustified at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think probably unjustified at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So from the start um we were we were So from the start um we were we were So from the start um we were we were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "pretty ambitious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Cursor came out of an pretty ambitious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Cursor came out of an pretty ambitious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Cursor came out of an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "ambitious idea exercise actually for the ambitious idea exercise actually for the ambitious idea exercise actually for the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You know we all found four of us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know we all found four of us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know we all found"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "programming fairly young and then some programming fairly young and then some programming fairly young and then some"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of our first engineering projects of our first engineering projects of our first engineering projects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "actually had to do with AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So one of us actually had to do with AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So one of us actually had to do with AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So one of us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "worked on um improving the data worked on um improving the data worked on um improving the data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "efficiency of robotic reinforcement efficiency of robotic reinforcement efficiency of robotic reinforcement"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So teaching robots very learning"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So teaching robots very learning"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So teaching robots very"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "quickly to learn new tasks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That was one quickly to learn new tasks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That was one quickly to learn new tasks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That was one"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of our early AI projects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, of our early AI projects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You know, of our early AI projects"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "another one of us worked on building another one of us worked on building another one of us worked on building"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "actually a competitor to Google um using actually a competitor to Google um using actually a competitor to Google um using"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "using neural networks um to try and sort using neural networks um to try and sort using neural networks um to try and sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of speedrun building an amazing search of speedrun building an amazing search of speedrun building an amazing search"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "engine for the web"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um you know, others engine for the web"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um you know, others engine for the web"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um you know, others"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "did uh academic work in AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But uh there did uh academic work in AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But uh there did uh academic work in AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But uh there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were two moments in 2021 that uh got us were two moments in 2021 that uh got us were two moments in 2021 that uh got us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really excited about building a company really excited about building a company really excited about building a company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that was focused on AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "One of them was that was focused on AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One of them was that was focused on AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One of them was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "using the first useful AI products where using the first useful AI products where using the first useful AI products where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "AI was really at the center and GitHub AI was really at the center and GitHub AI was really at the center and GitHub"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "copilot was honestly the moment where copilot was honestly the moment where copilot was honestly the moment where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that viscerally we really felt like uh that viscerally we really felt like uh that viscerally we really felt like uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "now it was possible to make just uh now it was possible to make just uh now it was possible to make just uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "really useful things with AI and that we really useful things with AI and that we really useful things with AI and that we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "shouldn't go to work in a lab to work on shouldn't go to work in a lab to work on shouldn't go to work in a lab to work on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "these things you know in an academic these things you know in an academic these things you know in an academic"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Instead it was time for this stuff lab"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Instead it was time for this stuff lab"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Instead it was time for this stuff"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to come out into the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The to come out into the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The to come out into the real world"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "other thing that got us really excited other thing that got us really excited other thing that got us really excited"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was seeing research come out of OpenAI was seeing research come out of OpenAI was seeing research come out of OpenAI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and other places that showed there were and other places that showed there were and other places that showed there were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "these very predictable um natural laws these very predictable um natural laws these very predictable um natural laws"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that showed if you scaled up the data that showed if you scaled up the data that showed if you scaled up the data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and you scaled up the compute that goes and you scaled up the compute that goes and you scaled up the compute that goes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "into these models, they were just into these models, they were just into these models, they were just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "getting better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and so that meant getting better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and so that meant getting better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and so that meant"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that even if we ran out of ideas for how that even if we ran out of ideas for how that even if we ran out of ideas for how"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to make AI better, there were a couple to make AI better, there were a couple to make AI better, there were a couple"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of orders of magnitude of that to to of orders of magnitude of that to to of orders of magnitude of that to to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "From the start, we wanted to still run"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "From the start, we wanted to still run"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "From the start, we wanted to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "pick an area of knowledge work and then pick an area of knowledge work and then pick an area of knowledge work and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "work on what that knowledge work became work on what that knowledge work became work on what that knowledge work became"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "as AI got more mature"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were very as AI got more mature"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were very as AI got more mature"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were very"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "interested in the shape of a company interested in the shape of a company interested in the shape of a company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where you build build a product for for where you build build a product for for where you build build a product for for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that area of knowledge work because that that area of knowledge work because that that area of knowledge work because that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "lets you do a couple of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One, as lets you do a couple of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One, as lets you do a couple of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the underlying tech gets more mature, the underlying tech gets more mature, the underlying tech gets more mature,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know, you can then yeah evolve the you know, you can then yeah evolve the you know, you can then yeah evolve the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "form factor of what doing that thing form factor of what doing that thing form factor of what doing that thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then two is even back looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then two is even back looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then two is even back"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "then it was clear you were probably then it was clear you were probably then it was clear you were probably"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "going to need more than just scaling up going to need more than just scaling up going to need more than just scaling up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the size of language models, you know, the size of language models, you know, the size of language models, you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And one way to continue to GPDN"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And one way to continue to GPDN"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And one way to continue"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "carrying forward progress on the carrying forward progress on the carrying forward progress on the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "underlying machine learning is to you underlying machine learning is to you underlying machine learning is to you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know get product data of you know what know get product data of you know what know get product data of you know what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "suggestions do people like what do they suggestions do people like what do they suggestions do people like what do they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "dislike you know what what are the hard dislike you know what what are the hard dislike you know what what are the hard"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "pieces of human human work that the AI pieces of human human work that the AI pieces of human human work that the AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "still can't really access and you kind still can't really access and you kind still can't really access and you kind"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you get that after the pane of glass you get that after the pane of glass you get that after the pane of glass"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where the knowledge work happens and so where the knowledge work happens and so where the knowledge work happens and so"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "initially we set out to do that for uh initially we set out to do that for uh initially we set out to do that for uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you know an area of knowledge work we you know an area of knowledge work we you know an area of knowledge work we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually didn't know that well which was actually didn't know that well which was actually didn't know that well which was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "mechanical engineering and we worked on mechanical engineering and we worked on mechanical engineering and we worked on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a co-pilot for um for computerated a co-pilot for um for computerated a co-pilot for um for computerated"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "design for a And so we were training 3D design for a And so we were training 3D design for a And so we were training 3D"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "autocomplete models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So helping people autocomplete models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So helping people autocomplete models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So helping people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "who are doing 3D modeling of a part that who are doing 3D modeling of a part that who are doing 3D modeling of a part that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they want to build in something like they want to build in something like they want to build in something like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Solid Works or um Fusion 360 and trying Solid Works or um Fusion 360 and trying Solid Works or um Fusion 360 and trying"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to predict kind of the next changes to to predict kind of the next changes to to predict kind of the next changes to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the geometry they were going to make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the geometry they were going to make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the geometry they were going to make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And it's a an interesting problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's And it's a an interesting problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's And it's a an interesting problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "one that academics have worked on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's one that academics have worked on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's one that academics have worked on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "actually one that Deep Minds worked on a actually one that Deep Minds worked on a actually one that Deep Minds worked on a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and these were not large bit too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and these were not large bit too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and these were not large"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "language models per se"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You can do it language models per se"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You can do it language models per se"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You can do it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "entirely 3D or what you can do is uh one entirely 3D or what you can do is uh one entirely 3D or what you can do is uh one"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "thread that we worked on for a while is thread that we worked on for a while is thread that we worked on for a while is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "turning it into a language problem where turning it into a language problem where turning it into a language problem where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you take the the steps that someone's you take the the steps that someone's you take the the steps that someone's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "doing in a CAD system and you kind of doing in a CAD system and you kind of doing in a CAD system and you kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "turn it into method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So if they're turn it into method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So if they're turn it into method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So if they're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "making a circle, you make that a method making a circle, you make that a method making a circle, you make that a method"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "call and it's just kind of like a list call and it's just kind of like a list call and it's just kind of like a list"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "of method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's not really of method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's not really of method calls"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's not really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "programming, but it it sort of looks programming, but it it sort of looks programming, but it it sort of looks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh the problem is if you're like it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh the problem is if you're like it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh the problem is if you're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "going to do it entirely textbased, going to do it entirely textbased, going to do it entirely textbased,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you're asking the model to do something you're asking the model to do something you're asking the model to do something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "not just predict what the really tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "not just predict what the really tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "not just predict what the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "user is going to do next, but also in user is going to do next, but also in user is going to do next, but also in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "its mind's eye simulate the geometry its mind's eye simulate the geometry its mind's eye simulate the geometry"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "because because because"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "CAD kernels like the software underlying CAD kernels like the software underlying CAD kernels like the software underlying"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "these uh CAD applications, they're these uh CAD applications, they're these uh CAD applications, they're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "fairly complicated and just from seeing fairly complicated and just from seeing fairly complicated and just from seeing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the sequence of actions a user took, the sequence of actions a user took, the sequence of actions a user took,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it's kind of hard to hallucinate what it's kind of hard to hallucinate what it's kind of hard to hallucinate what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the what the final thing looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the what the final thing looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the what the final thing looks like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's pretty tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But we worked on It's pretty tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But we worked on It's pretty tricky"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But we worked on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that for a bit"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh we there was a ton of that for a bit"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh we there was a ton of that for a bit"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh we there was a ton of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "data work to do there, a ton of data data work to do there, a ton of data data work to do there, a ton of data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "scraping where there's cat data that scraping where there's cat data that scraping where there's cat data that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "exists on the open internet"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We needed exists on the open internet"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We needed exists on the open internet"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to get that to make the models better to get that to make the models better to get that to make the models better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then we put that aside and better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then we put that aside and better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then we put that aside"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and that was for a couple of reasons"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and that was for a couple of reasons"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and that was for a couple of reasons"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "One was we really weren't as excited One was we really weren't as excited One was we really weren't as excited"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about mechanical engineering as we were about mechanical engineering as we were about mechanical engineering as we were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were all coders"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were all coders"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were all coders"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "other one was I think that the science other one was I think that the science other one was I think that the science"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "back then wasn't yet ready for 3D"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Like back then wasn't yet ready for 3D"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Like back then wasn't yet ready for 3D"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the pre-trained models weren't that good the pre-trained models weren't that good the pre-trained models weren't that good"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There wasn't a lot of data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There wasn't a lot of data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There wasn't a lot of data"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There's orders of magnitude less data of There's orders of magnitude less data of There's orders of magnitude less data of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "CAD models in the internet than code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um CAD models in the internet than code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um CAD models in the internet than code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and so it's hard to make a useful model and so it's hard to make a useful model and so it's hard to make a useful model"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "or it was back then hard to make a or it was back then hard to make a or it was back then hard to make a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "useful model for that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Did you useful model for that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Did you useful model for that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "end up uh going to sit with I don't know end up uh going to sit with I don't know end up uh going to sit with I don't know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people who used CAD or machinists and people who used CAD or machinists and people who used CAD or machinists and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "people like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So we did we did tons people like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So we did we did tons people like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So we did we did tons"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of user interviews and I think we could of user interviews and I think we could of user interviews and I think we could"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "have done that even better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think have done that even better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think have done that even better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that again on the maybe youthful naive that again on the maybe youthful naive that again on the maybe youthful naive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we were operating dayto-day week to week we were operating dayto-day week to week we were operating dayto-day week to week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "counting tasks by the by the hours"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And counting tasks by the by the hours"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And counting tasks by the by the hours"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "looking back on the time we spent on looking back on the time we spent on looking back on the time we spent on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that I think it would have been better that I think it would have been better that I think it would have been better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "up front to actually just go work at a up front to actually just go work at a up front to actually just go work at a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "company that was employing mechanical company that was employing mechanical company that was employing mechanical"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "engineers for 3 weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just go engineers for 3 weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just go engineers for 3 weeks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "undercover,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "get a better sense for like undercover,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "get a better sense for like undercover,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "get a better sense for like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the just stalt of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just get a job as a as the just stalt of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just get a job as a as the just stalt of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just get a job as a as"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a draft person and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that a draft person and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that a draft person and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "would have been immensely valuable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, would have been immensely valuable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, would have been immensely valuable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and substituting some of the like and substituting some of the like and substituting some of the like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "hundreds of user interviews for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I hundreds of user interviews for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I hundreds of user interviews for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "guess alongside that you were also guess alongside that you were also guess alongside that you were also"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "getting into training your own models to getting into training your own models to getting into training your own models to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "be able to do this which were you know be able to do this which were you know be able to do this which were you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and using RL and that was very useful and using RL and that was very useful and using RL and that was very useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and also learning how to spin up you and also learning how to spin up you and also learning how to spin up you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know large clusters to actually train know large clusters to actually train know large clusters to actually train"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So in that kind of these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So in that kind of these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So in that kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "period of false starts uh we didn't know period of false starts uh we didn't know period of false starts uh we didn't know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it at the time but yeah some of some of it at the time but yeah some of some of it at the time but yeah some of some of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the stuff we did there ended up being the stuff we did there ended up being the stuff we did there ended up being"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "useful for us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was doing a lot of you useful for us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was doing a lot of you useful for us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was doing a lot of you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know um behavior cloning um less RL but know um behavior cloning um less RL but know um behavior cloning um less RL but"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you were kind of looking at good you were kind of looking at good you were kind of looking at good"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "examples of what hum humans did and then examples of what hum humans did and then examples of what hum humans did and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "training the AI to do those things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But training the AI to do those things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But training the AI to do those things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "yeah training large language models in yeah training large language models in yeah training large language models in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the order of tens of billions of uh the order of tens of billions of uh the order of tens of billions of uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "parameters was not something a ton of parameters was not something a ton of parameters was not something a ton of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "people were doing back then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Even though people were doing back then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Even though people were doing back then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Even though"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the the kind of end product of the the the kind of end product of the the the kind of end product of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "product and models that we were working product and models that we were working product and models that we were working"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "on at that time wasn't that useful, it on at that time wasn't that useful, it on at that time wasn't that useful, it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "was a great dry run of of training was a great dry run of of training was a great dry run of of training"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "models at scale and uh you know also models at scale and uh you know also models at scale and uh you know also"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "doing inference at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There both doing inference at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There both doing inference at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "back then and honestly also now there back then and honestly also now there back then and honestly also now there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "weren't that many people training 10 weren't that many people training 10 weren't that many people training 10"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "billion plus uh parameter scale large billion plus uh parameter scale large billion plus uh parameter scale large"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "language models, machine learning language models, machine learning language models, machine learning"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so the the state of the models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so the the state of the models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so the the state of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "infrastructure was very very early and infrastructure was very very early and infrastructure was very very early and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we were doing things like forking we were doing things like forking we were doing things like forking"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Megatron LM or Microsoft Deep Speed and Megatron LM or Microsoft Deep Speed and Megatron LM or Microsoft Deep Speed and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of ripping out the internals and kind of ripping out the internals and kind of ripping out the internals and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "then um you know deploying that for then um you know deploying that for then um you know deploying that for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Even on the inference side of training"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Even on the inference side of training"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Even on the inference side of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "things too there were a couple of during things too there were a couple of during things too there were a couple of during"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that period a couple of things that we that period a couple of things that we that period a couple of things that we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we ran at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Now in cursor we do we ran at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Now in cursor we do we ran at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Now in cursor we do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "over half a billion model calls per day over half a billion model calls per day over half a billion model calls per day"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "on our own inference and you know some on our own inference and you know some on our own inference and you know some"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of some of the experience of of doing of some of the experience of of doing of some of the experience of of doing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "inference back then and and training inference back then and and training inference back then and and training"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "back then it has has definitely been uh back then it has has definitely been uh back then it has has definitely been uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "immensely useful um for for the cursor immensely useful um for for the cursor immensely useful um for for the cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So one of the things that's experience"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So one of the things that's experience"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So one of the things that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean a incredibly brave but also I mean a incredibly brave but also I mean a incredibly brave but also"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "incredibly precient was to take a moment incredibly precient was to take a moment incredibly precient was to take a moment"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and say actually we don't know enough and say actually we don't know enough and say actually we don't know enough"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about CAD you know we need to do about CAD you know we need to do about CAD you know we need to do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Was it a a straight something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Was it a a straight something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Was it a a straight"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "beline from the CAD training the CAD beline from the CAD training the CAD beline from the CAD training the CAD"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "models, you know, sort of recognizing models, you know, sort of recognizing models, you know, sort of recognizing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that scaling laws were holding and here that scaling laws were holding and here that scaling laws were holding and here"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was a domain that, you know, we could go was a domain that, you know, we could go was a domain that, you know, we could go"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "down and then you realized actually we down and then you realized actually we down and then you realized actually we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "need to do something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Like what was need to do something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Like what was need to do something else"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Like what was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it to actually pivot it to, you know, it to actually pivot it to, you know, it to actually pivot it to, you know,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "what it is today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It wasn't a straight what it is today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It wasn't a straight what it is today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It wasn't a straight"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um we I mean being programmers line"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um we I mean being programmers line"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um we I mean being programmers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "ourselves and being inspired by products ourselves and being inspired by products ourselves and being inspired by products"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "like copilot and uh also papers like the like copilot and uh also papers like the like copilot and uh also papers like the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "early codex papers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I remember at the early codex papers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I remember at the early codex papers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I remember at the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "time one of the things we did to justify time one of the things we did to justify time one of the things we did to justify"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to investors that they should kind of to investors that they should kind of to investors that they should kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "like invest in our crazy cat idea is we like invest in our crazy cat idea is we like invest in our crazy cat idea is we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "did the back of the envelope math for did the back of the envelope math for did the back of the envelope math for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "what codeex the first coding model what codeex the first coding model what codeex the first coding model"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "costed to train"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "From my memory it only costed to train"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "From my memory it only costed to train"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "From my memory it only"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "cost about 90k or 100k by our cost about 90k or 100k by our cost about 90k or 100k by our"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "calculations"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that really surprised calculations"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that really surprised calculations"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that really surprised"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "surprised investors at the time and was surprised investors at the time and was surprised investors at the time and was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of helpful in us getting enough kind of helpful in us getting enough kind of helpful in us getting enough"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "money to to pursue the uh CAD idea where money to to pursue the uh CAD idea where money to to pursue the uh CAD idea where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you had to start training immediately"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you had to start training immediately"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you had to start training immediately"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So we always knew about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were So we always knew about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were So we always knew about coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "always excited about it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were always always excited about it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We were always always excited about it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were always"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "excited about you know how AI was going excited about you know how AI was going excited about you know how AI was going"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to change coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We had a little bit of to change coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We had a little bit of to change coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "We had a little bit of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "trepidation about going and working on trepidation about going and working on trepidation about going and working on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that space because there were so many that space because there were so many that space because there were so many"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people already doing it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and uh we people already doing it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and uh we people already doing it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um and uh we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "thought copilot was awesome and you know thought copilot was awesome and you know thought copilot was awesome and you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "there were dozens of other companies there were dozens of other companies there were dozens of other companies"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "working on it too at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When we working on it too at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When we working on it too at the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "decided to put aside CAD, which was a decided to put aside CAD, which was a decided to put aside CAD, which was a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "little bit of an independent idea, that little bit of an independent idea, that little bit of an independent idea, that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was sort of the science not really was sort of the science not really was sort of the science not really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "working out, us not really being excited working out, us not really being excited working out, us not really being excited"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "about that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The thing that drew about that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The thing that drew about that domain"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The thing that drew"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "us back into coding was our our personal us back into coding was our our personal us back into coding was our our personal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And the thing that gave us the interest"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And the thing that gave us the interest"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And the thing that gave us the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "confidence then to continue with it was confidence then to continue with it was confidence then to continue with it was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "one seeing the progress that others had one seeing the progress that others had one seeing the progress that others had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "made over the course of, you know, 9 made over the course of, you know, 9 made over the course of, you know, 9"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "months or whatever it was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Felt like it months or whatever it was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Felt like it months or whatever it was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Felt like it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was a little bit slower than it could was a little bit slower than it could was a little bit slower than it could"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then also just sitting have been"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then also just sitting have been"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then also just sitting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "down and and thinking that if we were down and and thinking that if we were down and and thinking that if we were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "being really consistent with our beliefs being really consistent with our beliefs being really consistent with our beliefs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "in 5 years all of coding was going to in 5 years all of coding was going to in 5 years all of coding was going to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "flow through these models and the active flow through these models and the active flow through these models and the active"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "programming was going to entirely change programming was going to entirely change programming was going to entirely change"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and there were going to be all these and there were going to be all these and there were going to be all these"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "jumps you needed both at a product level jumps you needed both at a product level jumps you needed both at a product level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and at a model level to get there and and at a model level to get there and and at a model level to get there and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the ceiling was just just so high and it the ceiling was just just so high and it the ceiling was just just so high and it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really didn't seem like the existing really didn't seem like the existing really didn't seem like the existing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "players in the space were were aiming players in the space were were aiming players in the space were were aiming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "for a completely different type of for a completely different type of for a completely different type of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "didn't seem like they had that coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "didn't seem like they had that coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "didn't seem like they had that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "ambition like they were really set up to ambition like they were really set up to ambition like they were really set up to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "execute on that too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That first execute on that too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That first execute on that too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "experience taught us that you building a experience taught us that you building a experience taught us that you building a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "company is hard and so you may as well company is hard and so you may as well company is hard and so you may as well"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "work on the thing that you're really work on the thing that you're really work on the thing that you're really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so yeah, we set off excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so yeah, we set off excited about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so yeah, we set off"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to work on uh the future of coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's to work on uh the future of coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's to work on uh the future of coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "uh sounds extra precient in that Sam uh sounds extra precient in that Sam uh sounds extra precient in that Sam"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Alman sat in this chair maybe a year ago Alman sat in this chair maybe a year ago Alman sat in this chair maybe a year ago"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and talked about how if you're betting and talked about how if you're betting and talked about how if you're betting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "against the models getting smarter, against the models getting smarter, against the models getting smarter,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you should always bet that that's bad"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you should always bet that that's bad"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you should always bet that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the models are going to get a lot the models are going to get a lot the models are going to get a lot"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "smarter and you know 12 18 24 months smarter and you know 12 18 24 months smarter and you know 12 18 24 months"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "later that's been uh only more and more later that's been uh only more and more later that's been uh only more and more"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "true and then it sounds like you had true and then it sounds like you had true and then it sounds like you had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "been taking that bet uh a full 12 months been taking that bet uh a full 12 months been taking that bet uh a full 12 months"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "before even that was said"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Yeah, we had before even that was said"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Yeah, we had before even that was said"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Yeah, we had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a phrase back then which was follow the a phrase back then which was follow the a phrase back then which was follow the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "um and you wanted to always be line"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "um and you wanted to always be line"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "um and you wanted to always be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "following the line and planning for following the line and planning for following the line and planning for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "where the line was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I mean kind of where the line was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I mean kind of where the line was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "hearkening back to the to the scaling hearkening back to the to the scaling hearkening back to the to the scaling"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "loss of like you know these things are loss of like you know these things are loss of like you know these things are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just going to keep getting better and just going to keep getting better and just going to keep getting better and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "better and better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "The classic Peter better and better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The classic Peter better and better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The classic Peter"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Tealism is uh what do you believe that Tealism is uh what do you believe that Tealism is uh what do you believe that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "nobody else believes and uh you believe nobody else believes and uh you believe nobody else believes and uh you believe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "this and you were so right that that's this and you were so right that that's this and you were so right that that's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "what allowed you to actually go to where what allowed you to actually go to where what allowed you to actually go to where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the puck was going to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Yeah, I think the puck was going to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Yeah, I think the puck was going to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Yeah, I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think it was one of the things that I think it was one of the things that I think it was one of the things that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was helpful and now obviously it's was helpful and now obviously it's was helpful and now obviously it's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "become much more uh in vogue"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But back become much more uh in vogue"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But back become much more uh in vogue"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "then, you know, 2022 was this crazy uh then, you know, 2022 was this crazy uh then, you know, 2022 was this crazy uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "pivotal year where you start at the pivotal year where you start at the pivotal year where you start at the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "beginning of the year, no one's really beginning of the year, no one's really beginning of the year, no one's really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "talking about AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, GBD3 had talking about AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, GBD3 had talking about AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I mean, GBD3 had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "happened the year before"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Copilot had happened the year before"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Copilot had happened the year before"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Copilot had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Copilot was beta 2021 and then happened"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Copilot was beta 2021 and then happened"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Copilot was beta 2021 and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "maybe GA 2022 and then it started maybe GA 2022 and then it started maybe GA 2022 and then it started"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "picking up and you know we still picking up and you know we still picking up and you know we still"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "remember all the launches of you know remember all the launches of you know remember all the launches of you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "instruct GBT which made GP3 a little bit instruct GBT which made GP3 a little bit instruct GBT which made GP3 a little bit"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was fine tuning on better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was fine tuning on better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was fine tuning on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "instructions and then uh Dali in the instructions and then uh Dali in the instructions and then uh Dali in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I remember that was kind of the summer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I remember that was kind of the summer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I remember that was kind of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "visceral moment that convinced a lot of visceral moment that convinced a lot of visceral moment that convinced a lot of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people who weren't focused on the space people who weren't focused on the space people who weren't focused on the space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to be to pay a bit more attention to it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to be to pay a bit more attention to it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to be to pay a bit more attention to it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But then there was uh palm and stable But then there was uh palm and stable But then there was uh palm and stable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "diffusion and then you start to get RHF diffusion and then you start to get RHF diffusion and then you start to get RHF"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you start to get 3"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "5 and you have these you start to get 3"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "5 and you have these you start to get 3"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "5 and you have these"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "models getting way better without a big models getting way better without a big models getting way better without a big"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "increase in the training cost which was increase in the training cost which was increase in the training cost which was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "an interesting development"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Heard it an interesting development"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Heard it an interesting development"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "rumored that to go from GPD3 which you rumored that to go from GPD3 which you rumored that to go from GPD3 which you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know had existed for a while and didn't know had existed for a while and didn't know had existed for a while and didn't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know impress some people but was you know impress some people but was you know impress some people but was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "certainly not the breakout moment certainly not the breakout moment certainly not the breakout moment"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "chachbt was to chache BT was like a 1% chachbt was to chache BT was like a 1% chachbt was to chache BT was like a 1%"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "increase in the training costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Oh my increase in the training costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Oh my increase in the training costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was you know from fine tuning on god"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was you know from fine tuning on god"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was you know from fine tuning on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "instructions RHF you know some other instructions RHF you know some other instructions RHF you know some other"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "details too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Do you remember are there details too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Do you remember are there details too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Do you remember are there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were there like specific features or were there like specific features or were there like specific features or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "product choices that you made because product choices that you made because product choices that you made because"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you knew that the uh that the models you knew that the uh that the models you knew that the uh that the models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "were going to get not just a little bit were going to get not just a little bit were going to get not just a little bit"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "smarter but significantly smarter that smarter but significantly smarter that smarter but significantly smarter that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "change specific products or road maps change specific products or road maps change specific products or road maps"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that ended up you know sort of causing that ended up you know sort of causing that ended up you know sort of causing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you to win cuz you mentioned I mean you to win cuz you mentioned I mean you to win cuz you mentioned I mean"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "there were certainly maybe a dozen other there were certainly maybe a dozen other there were certainly maybe a dozen other"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "companies that were quite good that you companies that were quite good that you companies that were quite good that you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "know were also in the area"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, one of know were also in the area"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, one of know were also in the area"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the product decisions that we made early the product decisions that we made early the product decisions that we made early"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "on that was nonobvious that came from on that was nonobvious that came from on that was nonobvious that came from"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "being excited about a bit more of a being excited about a bit more of a being excited about a bit more of a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "radical future was not building an radical future was not building an radical future was not building an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "extension and was building an editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "extension and was building an editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "extension and was building an editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That was was not obvious to people at That was was not obvious to people at That was was not obvious to people at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And yeah, that came from a the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And yeah, that came from a the time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And yeah, that came from a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "place of thinking all of programming is place of thinking all of programming is place of thinking all of programming is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "going to flow through these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's going to flow through these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's going to flow through these models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "going to look very different in the going to look very different in the going to look very different in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You're going to need a control future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You're going to need a control future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You're going to need a control"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It also came too from interesting UI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It also came too from interesting UI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It also came too from interesting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "anecdotes we knew about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, we knew we anecdotes we knew about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, we knew we anecdotes we knew about"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, we knew we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "knew a little bit about this the knew a little bit about this the knew a little bit about this the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "internal inside baseball of building internal inside baseball of building internal inside baseball of building"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "GitHub copilot"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the first version the GitHub copilot"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the first version the GitHub copilot"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the first version the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the whole building GitHub copilot story the whole building GitHub copilot story the whole building GitHub copilot story"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "from what I understand and you know from what I understand and you know from what I understand and you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "don't have firsthand knowledge so some don't have firsthand knowledge so some don't have firsthand knowledge so some"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "of these details might be wrong is of these details might be wrong is of these details might be wrong is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "pretty interesting where it started from pretty interesting where it started from pretty interesting where it started from"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a very solution and search for a problem a very solution and search for a problem a very solution and search for a problem"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "place of being interested in just taking place of being interested in just taking place of being interested in just taking"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "GB3 and making it useful for for coders GB3 and making it useful for for coders GB3 and making it useful for for coders"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and I think it came from uh leadership and I think it came from uh leadership and I think it came from uh leadership"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "it came from the CEO of GitHub at the it came from the CEO of GitHub at the it came from the CEO of GitHub at the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "time he just said we need to be doing time he just said we need to be doing time he just said we need to be doing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "this and he kind of sent a tiger team this and he kind of sent a tiger team this and he kind of sent a tiger team"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "off figure out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was Matt Freriedman at off figure out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was Matt Freriedman at off figure out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "was Matt Freriedman at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the time yeah that yeah my understanding the time yeah that yeah my understanding the time yeah that yeah my understanding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "is came from Matt and I think they spent is came from Matt and I think they spent is came from Matt and I think they spent"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "almost a year wandering in the desert almost a year wandering in the desert almost a year wandering in the desert"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "experimenting with different product experimenting with different product experimenting with different product"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "ideas and of course they had the these ideas and of course they had the these ideas and of course they had the these"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were people really excited about the were people really excited about the were people really excited about the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "future of AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "They thought immediately, future of AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They thought immediately, future of AI"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They thought immediately,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "can we just automate PR's intent a can we just automate PR's intent a can we just automate PR's intent a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "little before or uh its time and they little before or uh its time and they little before or uh its time and they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "worked on that for a bit and then worked on that for a bit and then worked on that for a bit and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "decided that was impossible and they decided that was impossible and they decided that was impossible and they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "tried all these other wacky product tried all these other wacky product tried all these other wacky product"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "ideas until they just hit on the simple ideas until they just hit on the simple ideas until they just hit on the simple"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "thing of of autocomplete"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But even after thing of of autocomplete"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But even after thing of of autocomplete"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But even after"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they got autocomplete to work, um they they got autocomplete to work, um they they got autocomplete to work, um they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "needed to make changes at the editor needed to make changes at the editor needed to make changes at the editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They couldn't do it entirely as level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "They couldn't do it entirely as level"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "They couldn't do it entirely as"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "an extension"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They had to go and change an extension"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They had to go and change an extension"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "They had to go and change"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "things in the mainline VS Code and things in the mainline VS Code and things in the mainline VS Code and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "expose different editor APIs to even expose different editor APIs to even expose different editor APIs to even"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "just show that ghost text"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Then there just show that ghost text"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Then there just show that ghost text"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was some from my understanding that was was some from my understanding that was was some from my understanding that was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually kind of hard to do actually kind of hard to do actually kind of hard to do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "organizationally"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "If you were going to organizationally"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If you were going to organizationally"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "If you were going to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "need to change the editor for something need to change the editor for something need to change the editor for something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "as simple as ghostex autocomplete, we as simple as ghostex autocomplete, we as simple as ghostex autocomplete, we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "knew we were going to have to do it a knew we were going to have to do it a knew we were going to have to do it a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so that was nonobvious and we bunch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so that was nonobvious and we bunch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so that was nonobvious and we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "got a lot of flack for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And we got a lot of flack for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And we got a lot of flack for that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually initially started by building actually initially started by building actually initially started by building"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "our own editor from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Obviously our own editor from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Obviously our own editor from scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "using lots of open source technology, using lots of open source technology, using lots of open source technology,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "but not you know basing it off of VS but not you know basing it off of VS but not you know basing it off of VS"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Code, kind of like how browsers are Code, kind of like how browsers are Code, kind of like how browsers are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "based off of Chromium"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was a little based off of Chromium"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was a little based off of Chromium"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was a little"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "bit more akin to building, you know, all bit more akin to building, you know, all bit more akin to building, you know, all"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the internal rendering of a browser from the internal rendering of a browser from the internal rendering of a browser from"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and we launched with that and scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and we launched with that and scratch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and we launched with that and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "then we then we switched to to basing then we then we switched to to basing then we then we switched to to basing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "off of VS code but uh the editor thing off of VS code but uh the editor thing off of VS code but uh the editor thing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "was non obvious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So cursors out you made was non obvious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So cursors out you made was non obvious"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So cursors out you made"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a bunch of decisions that turned out to a bunch of decisions that turned out to a bunch of decisions that turned out to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When did you know it was going be right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "When did you know it was going be right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "When did you know it was going"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It took a little bit of time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It took a little bit of time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It took a little bit of time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "If you'll remember there's this initial If you'll remember there's this initial If you'll remember there's this initial"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "year is roughly a year in the wilderness year is roughly a year in the wilderness year is roughly a year in the wilderness"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of you know working on something that of you know working on something that of you know working on something that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that was precursor to cursor and the that was precursor to cursor and the that was precursor to cursor and the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "mechanical engineering side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "mechanical engineering side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "mechanical engineering side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh and then you know there was an Uh and then you know there was an Uh and then you know there was an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "initial development period for curser initial development period for curser initial development period for curser"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that was fairly small before we released that was fairly small before we released that was fairly small before we released"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the first version to the public"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think the first version to the public"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think the first version to the public"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that it was from lines of code to first that it was from lines of code to first that it was from lines of code to first"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "public beta release"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was 3 months but public beta release"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was 3 months but public beta release"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was 3 months but"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "then there was this year of iterating in then there was this year of iterating in then there was this year of iterating in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "public at very small scale where we had public at very small scale where we had public at very small scale where we had"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "did not have lightning in the bottle"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um did not have lightning in the bottle"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um did not have lightning in the bottle"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and it was growing but it was you know and it was growing but it was you know and it was growing but it was you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the numbers numbers were small"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Dialing the numbers numbers were small"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Dialing the numbers numbers were small"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "in the product at that point took maybe in the product at that point took maybe in the product at that point took maybe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a year of getting all of the details a year of getting all of the details a year of getting all of the details"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Then it was only after that right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Then it was only after that right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Then it was only after that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "initial period of cursor being out for 9 initial period of cursor being out for 9 initial period of cursor being out for 9"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "months to a year of working on the months to a year of working on the months to a year of working on the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "underlying product building out the team underlying product building out the team underlying product building out the team"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "also not just the product side of things also not just the product side of things also not just the product side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "but also starting to get the first but also starting to get the first but also starting to get the first"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "versions of custom models behind cursor versions of custom models behind cursor versions of custom models behind cursor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to power you know underneath cursor um to power you know underneath cursor um to power you know underneath cursor um"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that things started to click"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and then uh that things started to click"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then uh that things started to click"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "growth started to pick up and then yeah growth started to pick up and then yeah growth started to pick up and then yeah"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "since then it's been uh you know we sort since then it's been uh you know we sort since then it's been uh you know we sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of have a tiger by the tail and if we of have a tiger by the tail and if we of have a tiger by the tail and if we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "are to be successful there's a lot of are to be successful there's a lot of are to be successful there's a lot of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "things that we need to continue to things that we need to continue to things that we need to continue to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "execute on in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think one of execute on in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think one of execute on in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think one of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the challenges we have and a lot of the challenges we have and a lot of the challenges we have and a lot of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "other companies in parallel spaces have other companies in parallel spaces have other companies in parallel spaces have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "is just the rate at which we need to is just the rate at which we need to is just the rate at which we need to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "build the company I think is really fast build the company I think is really fast build the company I think is really fast"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and I think rules of thumb around don't and I think rules of thumb around don't and I think rules of thumb around don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "grow headcount more than 50% or grow headcount more than 50% or grow headcount more than 50% or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "year-over-year"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have to yeah year-over-year"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have to yeah year-over-year"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have to yeah"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "have to have to be broken I think have to have to be broken I think have to have to be broken I think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "interesting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "were there like uh sort interesting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were there like uh sort interesting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were there like uh sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "of true north metrics or things that you of true north metrics or things that you of true north metrics or things that you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and your co-founders were monitoring to and your co-founders were monitoring to and your co-founders were monitoring to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "figure out like is this working was it figure out like is this working was it figure out like is this working was it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know week-on-week retention or open you know week-on-week retention or open you know week-on-week retention or open"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how did that influence uh what rate or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how did that influence uh what rate or"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how did that influence uh what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you were working on in a given week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, you were working on in a given week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, you were working on in a given week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we looked at um all the normal things we looked at um all the normal things we looked at um all the normal things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "like retention"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "For us, the main like retention"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "For us, the main like retention"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "For us, the main"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "activity metric we looked at or the activity metric we looked at or the activity metric we looked at or the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "yeah, the main topline metric we looked yeah, the main topline metric we looked yeah, the main topline metric we looked"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "at we we looked at revenue, we looked at at we we looked at revenue, we looked at at we we looked at revenue, we looked at"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "paid power users measured by are you paid power users measured by are you paid power users measured by are you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "using the AI four or five days a week using the AI four or five days a week using the AI four or five days a week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "out of seven days a week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And that was out of seven days a week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And that was out of seven days a week"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And that was"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the number we were trying to get up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And the number we were trying to get up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And the number we were trying to get up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "why was it paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that why was it paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that why was it paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we're a tool that serves professionals"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we're a tool that serves professionals"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we're a tool that serves professionals"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I also think that to deliver the And I also think that to deliver the And I also think that to deliver the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "tool, it has real costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so we care tool, it has real costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so we care tool, it has real costs"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so we care"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about you get graduating to that paid about you get graduating to that paid about you get graduating to that paid"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And that's that's where things tier"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And that's that's where things tier"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And that's that's where things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "were sustainable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Paid power users"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That were sustainable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Paid power users"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That were sustainable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Paid power users"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "was what we, you know, it wasn't DAUs, was what we, you know, it wasn't DAUs, was what we, you know, it wasn't DAUs,"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "MAUs or anything like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was are MAUs or anything like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was are MAUs or anything like that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you using this every single day for your you using this every single day for your you using this every single day for your"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "That's what we were trying to get work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That's what we were trying to get work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That's what we were trying to get"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then once that was the metric, I up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then once that was the metric, I up"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And then once that was the metric, I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "guess did you work backwards from that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "guess did you work backwards from that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "guess did you work backwards from that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's like, well, we know the segment of It's like, well, we know the segment of It's like, well, we know the segment of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "people we want to grow"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then what do people we want to grow"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then what do people we want to grow"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and then what do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they want or what would prevent people they want or what would prevent people they want or what would prevent people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "from becoming that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that from becoming that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that from becoming that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "building for yourself doesn't work in a building for yourself doesn't work in a building for yourself doesn't work in a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "lot of spaces"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "For us, it did"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I lot of spaces"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "For us, it did"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I lot of spaces"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "For us, it did"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "think it was actually clarifying uh think it was actually clarifying uh think it was actually clarifying uh"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "because one of the siren songs involved because one of the siren songs involved because one of the siren songs involved"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "in building AI products is optimizing in building AI products is optimizing in building AI products is optimizing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "for the demo"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "uh we were really for the demo"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "uh we were really for the demo"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "uh we were really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "nervous about optimizing for the demo nervous about optimizing for the demo nervous about optimizing for the demo"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "because with AI it's it's easy to kind because with AI it's it's easy to kind because with AI it's it's easy to kind"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "of take a couple of examples and put of take a couple of examples and put of take a couple of examples and put"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "together a video where you know it looks together a video where you know it looks together a video where you know it looks"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "like you have a revolutionary product like you have a revolutionary product like you have a revolutionary product"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and then I think that there's a long and then I think that there's a long and then I think that there's a long"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "line you know there's a lot of work line you know there's a lot of work line you know there's a lot of work"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "between the version that can result in between the version that can result in between the version that can result in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that great looking demo and then a that great looking demo and then a that great looking demo and then a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "useful AI product which means kind of useful AI product which means kind of useful AI product which means kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "dialing in the the speed side of things dialing in the the speed side of things dialing in the the speed side of things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the reliability side of things the the reliability side of things the the reliability side of things the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "intelligence side of things the product intelligence side of things the product intelligence side of things the product"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "experience side of things for us the experience side of things for us the experience side of things for us the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "kind of main thing that we really acted kind of main thing that we really acted kind of main thing that we really acted"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "on was just we reload the editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Our on was just we reload the editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Our on was just we reload the editor"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "product development uh process early on product development uh process early on product development uh process early on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "it was very experimental"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was very it was very experimental"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It was very it was very experimental"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It was very"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "focused on um kind of like what we focused on um kind of like what we focused on um kind of like what we"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "understand Apple to be like very focused understand Apple to be like very focused understand Apple to be like very focused"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "on dog fooding and usable demos like on dog fooding and usable demos like on dog fooding and usable demos like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "things we could just immediately start things we could just immediately start things we could just immediately start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "using in the editor internally and then using in the editor internally and then using in the editor internally and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we would look at these metrics to make we would look at these metrics to make we would look at these metrics to make"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "sure that you know week on week on month sure that you know week on week on month sure that you know week on week on month"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "we were kind of on the right path"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we were kind of on the right path"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we were kind of on the right path"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So earlier you said I mean sometimes you So earlier you said I mean sometimes you So earlier you said I mean sometimes you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "got to break these iron laws around got to break these iron laws around got to break these iron laws around"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um when did you decide to break hiring"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um when did you decide to break hiring"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um when did you decide to break"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, you know, was it just the it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I mean, you know, was it just the it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I mean, you know, was it just the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "co-founders and a few people until sort co-founders and a few people until sort co-founders and a few people until sort"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of, you know, some revenue goal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "How did of, you know, some revenue goal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "How did of, you know, some revenue goal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you think about the gas pedal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Did you you think about the gas pedal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Did you you think about the gas pedal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "like sort of feather it and then like like sort of feather it and then like like sort of feather it and then like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "once it was clear like you hit your once it was clear like you hit your once it was clear like you hit your"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "numbers like we're pushing pushing the numbers like we're pushing pushing the numbers like we're pushing pushing the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "pedal all the way down"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, it was just pedal all the way down"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, it was just pedal all the way down"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So, it was just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the co-founders for a long time and then the co-founders for a long time and then the co-founders for a long time and then"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the co-founders and a few people until the co-founders and a few people until the co-founders and a few people until"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we got to the point where things were we got to the point where things were we got to the point where things were"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really kind of dialed in and taking off"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really kind of dialed in and taking off"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really kind of dialed in and taking off"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Who were some some of the first hire"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I Who were some some of the first hire"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I Who were some some of the first hire"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "mean I assume more engineers but you mean I assume more engineers but you mean I assume more engineers but you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so we agonized over the first hires know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so we agonized over the first hires know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "so we agonized over the first hires"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and I think that if you want to go fast and I think that if you want to go fast and I think that if you want to go fast"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "on the order of years actually going on the order of years actually going on the order of years actually going"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "slow on the order of you know 6 months slow on the order of you know 6 months slow on the order of you know 6 months"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "is super helpful because if you really is super helpful because if you really is super helpful because if you really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "nail the first 10 people to come into nail the first 10 people to come into nail the first 10 people to come into"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the company they will both accelerate the company they will both accelerate the company they will both accelerate"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you in the future because when you know you in the future because when you know you in the future because when you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the nth person comes in that's you know the nth person comes in that's you know the nth person comes in that's you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "is thinking about working with you comes is thinking about working with you comes is thinking about working with you comes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "in and hangs out with the team they'll in and hangs out with the team they'll in and hangs out with the team they'll"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just be shocked by the talent density just be shocked by the talent density just be shocked by the talent density"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then really excited to work there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then really excited to work there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then really excited to work there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And then the other reason they can help And then the other reason they can help And then the other reason they can help"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you go faster in the future is if you go faster in the future is if you go faster in the future is if"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "someone comes in and they're not a great someone comes in and they're not a great someone comes in and they're not a great"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "fit, these people act as an immune fit, these people act as an immune fit, these people act as an immune"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "system against that, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And they system against that, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And they system against that, right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "will be kind of keepers of holding the will be kind of keepers of holding the will be kind of keepers of holding the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "bar really high"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so we hired very bar really high"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so we hired very bar really high"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so we hired very"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "very very slowly at the start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were very very slowly at the start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "We were very very slowly at the start"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "able to do that also partially because able to do that also partially because able to do that also partially because"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we had such a big founding team and all we had such a big founding team and all we had such a big founding team and all"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the co-founders were technical"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But the co-founders were technical"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But the co-founders were technical"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "yeah, the people we got uh uh are yeah, the people we got uh uh are yeah, the people we got uh uh are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "fantastic and are really core to the fantastic and are really core to the fantastic and are really core to the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "company today and folks who bled across company today and folks who bled across company today and folks who bled across"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "disciplines where we are this company disciplines where we are this company disciplines where we are this company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that needs to be something in between a that needs to be something in between a that needs to be something in between a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "foundation model lab and a normal foundation model lab and a normal foundation model lab and a normal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software company and the models and software company and the models and software company and the models and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "product have to work together under one product have to work together under one product have to work together under one"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "roof and so we had fantastic people who roof and so we had fantastic people who roof and so we had fantastic people who"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "were uh product minded, commercially were uh product minded, commercially were uh product minded, commercially"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "minded but had actually trained models minded but had actually trained models minded but had actually trained models"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So generalist polymath is at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So generalist polymath is at scale"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So generalist polymath is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "really really great at sort of that really really great at sort of that really really great at sort of that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "first 10 people stage"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and and first 10 people stage"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and and first 10 people stage"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "making build building things quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "making build building things quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "making build building things quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And shipping production code Yeah"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And shipping production code Yeah"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And shipping production code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "These days, I mean, everyone's quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "These days, I mean, everyone's quickly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "These days, I mean, everyone's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "sort of trying to figure out how to deal sort of trying to figure out how to deal sort of trying to figure out how to deal"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "with this, but you know, simply because with this, but you know, simply because with this, but you know, simply because"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the AI tools are so great, it's making the AI tools are so great, it's making the AI tools are so great, it's making"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it harder at times to even figure out it harder at times to even figure out it harder at times to even figure out"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how do you uh evaluate great engineers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how do you uh evaluate great engineers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "how do you uh evaluate great engineers"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Has that changed over time for you as Has that changed over time for you as Has that changed over time for you as"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you know, literally your own product has you know, literally your own product has you know, literally your own product has"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "become more and more common"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Do you become more and more common"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Do you become more and more common"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "select for people who are really great select for people who are really great select for people who are really great"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "at using the AI tools or you know is it at using the AI tools or you know is it at using the AI tools or you know is it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "really just the you know let's stick really just the you know let's stick really just the you know let's stick"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "with the classics and you know anyone with the classics and you know anyone with the classics and you know anyone"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "could learn how to use the AI tools"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So could learn how to use the AI tools"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So could learn how to use the AI tools"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "for interviewing we actually still for interviewing we actually still for interviewing we actually still"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "interview people without allowing them interview people without allowing them interview people without allowing them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to use AI other than autocomplete for to use AI other than autocomplete for to use AI other than autocomplete for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "our first technical screens"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Programming our first technical screens"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Programming our first technical screens"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Programming"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "without AI is still a really great without AI is still a really great without AI is still a really great"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "timeboxed test for skill and timeboxed test for skill and timeboxed test for skill and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "intelligence and kind of the the things intelligence and kind of the the things intelligence and kind of the the things"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that you would always want someone on that you would always want someone on that you would always want someone on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "your team to to have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "um as a your team to to have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "um as a your team to to have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "But then the other reason is programmer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But then the other reason is programmer"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "But then the other reason is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "we've hired lots of people who are we've hired lots of people who are we've hired lots of people who are"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "fantastic programmers who actually have fantastic programmers who actually have fantastic programmers who actually have"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "no experience with AI tools and we don't no experience with AI tools and we don't no experience with AI tools and we don't"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "want to unfairly disadvantage them want to unfairly disadvantage them want to unfairly disadvantage them"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "because these tools are so useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So we because these tools are so useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So we because these tools are so useful"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "would much rather hire those people and would much rather hire those people and would much rather hire those people and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "then teach them on the job to to use then teach them on the job to to use then teach them on the job to to use"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "these things and also kind of mine the these things and also kind of mine the these things and also kind of mine the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "product insights from that beginner's product insights from that beginner's product insights from that beginner's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "mind of them using the tools for the mind of them using the tools for the mind of them using the tools for the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Cursor is now worth $9 first time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Cursor is now worth $9 first time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Cursor is now worth $9"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh how do you keep the hacker billion"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh how do you keep the hacker billion"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh how do you keep the hacker"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "energy alive, you know, as the team energy alive, you know, as the team energy alive, you know, as the team"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And do you still write code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And do you still write code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And do you still write code"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's something that we think I do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's something that we think I do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's something that we think"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "about a lot uh because I think that about a lot uh because I think that about a lot uh because I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "cursor in the future will have to look cursor in the future will have to look cursor in the future will have to look"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "very different from cursor today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One I very different from cursor today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "One I very different from cursor today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think you can do it by hiring the I think you can do it by hiring the I think you can do it by hiring the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "right people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So uh the last step of our right people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So uh the last step of our right people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So uh the last step of our"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "hiring process is a two-day on-site hiring process is a two-day on-site hiring process is a two-day on-site"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where you come and you just work on a where you come and you just work on a where you come and you just work on a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "project with us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so this is after an project with us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so this is after an project with us"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And so this is after an"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "initial set of technical screens and initial set of technical screens and initial set of technical screens and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you're in the office and you're kind of you're in the office and you're kind of you're in the office and you're kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "a member of the team and you come to a member of the team and you come to a member of the team and you come to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "meals with us and uh and work on meals with us and uh and work on meals with us and uh and work on"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and then you demo it at the something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then you demo it at the something"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and then you demo it at the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "end and then we ask you questions"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That end and then we ask you questions"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "That end and then we ask you questions"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "gets at energy and excitement and gets at energy and excitement and gets at energy and excitement and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "passion for the problem space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And passion for the problem space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And passion for the problem space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "usually you're probably not going to be usually you're probably not going to be usually you're probably not going to be"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "super willing to do that if you're maybe super willing to do that if you're maybe super willing to do that if you're maybe"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "just view it as a job and you're just view it as a job and you're just view it as a job and you're"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "applying to a bunch of of technology applying to a bunch of of technology applying to a bunch of of technology"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "companies at the same time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So I think a companies at the same time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So I think a companies at the same time"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "So I think a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "big way to do it is by getting big way to do it is by getting big way to do it is by getting"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "passionate people through the hiring passionate people through the hiring passionate people through the hiring"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There are big projects that process"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "There are big projects that process"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "There are big projects that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "require a lot of coordination amongst require a lot of coordination amongst require a lot of coordination amongst"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "people where you need top down people where you need top down people where you need top down"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that we always want alignment"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that we always want alignment"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that we always want"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to be a place that does a good degree of to be a place that does a good degree of to be a place that does a good degree of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "bottoms up experimentation too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Um, and bottoms up experimentation too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, and bottoms up experimentation too"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "so we really try and encourage that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "so we really try and encourage that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so we really try and encourage that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Both people taking time on the side to Both people taking time on the side to Both people taking time on the side to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh, and then also explicitly do that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh, and then also explicitly do that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Uh, and then also explicitly"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "taking teams of engineers, sectioning taking teams of engineers, sectioning taking teams of engineers, sectioning"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "them off from the rest of the company them off from the rest of the company them off from the rest of the company"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and kind of just giving them carp launch and kind of just giving them carp launch and kind of just giving them carp launch"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "to to experiment on what they'd like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to to experiment on what they'd like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "to to experiment on what they'd like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "So, one of the things that I think all So, one of the things that I think all So, one of the things that I think all"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "startups and maybe all businesses right startups and maybe all businesses right startups and maybe all businesses right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "now are even trying to figure out in the now are even trying to figure out in the now are even trying to figure out in the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "face of uh some of the most impressive face of uh some of the most impressive face of uh some of the most impressive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "and incredible models in the world is and incredible models in the world is and incredible models in the world is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "what are the moes that are going to what are the moes that are going to what are the moes that are going to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "actually be durable and usable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "How do actually be durable and usable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "How do actually be durable and usable"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you think about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that you think about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that you think about that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Well, I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "the the market that we're in and that the the market that we're in and that the the market that we're in and that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "others are in resembles markets that others are in resembles markets that others are in resembles markets that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "you've seen in the past that actually you've seen in the past that actually you've seen in the past that actually"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "aren't enterprise software markets"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, aren't enterprise software markets"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Um, aren't enterprise software markets"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "so I think that a lot of enterprise so I think that a lot of enterprise so I think that a lot of enterprise"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "software markets are kind of software markets are kind of software markets are kind of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "characterized by well there's sort of a characterized by well there's sort of a characterized by well there's sort of a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "low ceiling for the good core value you low ceiling for the good core value you low ceiling for the good core value you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "can deliver in the product and there's a can deliver in the product and there's a can deliver in the product and there's a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "lot of lock in and the market we're in lot of lock in and the market we're in lot of lock in and the market we're in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "kind of mirrors search at the end of the kind of mirrors search at the end of the kind of mirrors search at the end of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "90s where the product ceiling is really 90s where the product ceiling is really 90s where the product ceiling is really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "search could get a lot better for high"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "search could get a lot better for high"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "search could get a lot better for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "a long long period of time and you know a long long period of time and you know a long long period of time and you know"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "for us the end goal is to replace coding for us the end goal is to replace coding for us the end goal is to replace coding"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "with something much better and automate with something much better and automate with something much better and automate"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "coding and I think that there's a long coding and I think that there's a long coding and I think that there's a long"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "long long way to go on that one of the long long way to go on that one of the long long way to go on that one of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "things that characterize search and I things that characterize search and I things that characterize search and I"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "think also characterize our market is think also characterize our market is think also characterize our market is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "distribution is really helpful for distribution is really helpful for distribution is really helpful for"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "making the product better and so if you making the product better and so if you making the product better and so if you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "have lots of people using your thing you have lots of people using your thing you have lots of people using your thing you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "have an atscale business you get a sense have an atscale business you get a sense have an atscale business you get a sense"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "of where the product's falling over and of where the product's falling over and of where the product's falling over and"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "where it's doing well and so in search where it's doing well and so in search where it's doing well and so in search"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that's seeing you know what are people that's seeing you know what are people that's seeing you know what are people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "clicking on what are they bouncing back clicking on what are they bouncing back clicking on what are they bouncing back"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "from what was a good search result, what from what was a good search result, what from what was a good search result, what"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "is a bad search result, which then feeds is a bad search result, which then feeds is a bad search result, which then feeds"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "into the R&D and then helps them make a into the R&D and then helps them make a into the R&D and then helps them make a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "better search engine"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh for us, it's better search engine"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh for us, it's better search engine"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Uh for us, it's"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "seeing, you know, where are people seeing, you know, where are people seeing, you know, where are people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "accepting things, where are they accepting things, where are they accepting things, where are they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "rejecting things in the places where rejecting things in the places where rejecting things in the places where"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "they accept things and then they correct they accept things and then they correct they accept things and then they correct"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it later, what's what's going on there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "it later, what's what's going on there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "it later, what's what's going on there"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "How could we have been better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think How could we have been better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think How could we have been better"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "that that will be a really really that that will be a really really that that will be a really really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "important driver um to making the important driver um to making the important driver um to making the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "product better and kind of the product better and kind of the product better and kind of the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "underlying models better in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "underlying models better in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "underlying models better in the future"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think another market to take I think another market to take I think another market to take"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "inspiration from is consumer electronics inspiration from is consumer electronics inspiration from is consumer electronics"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "at the beginning of the 2000s"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The thing at the beginning of the 2000s"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "The thing at the beginning of the 2000s"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "there was getting the iPod moment right there was getting the iPod moment right there was getting the iPod moment right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "and then the iPhone moment right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And and then the iPhone moment right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And and then the iPhone moment right"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "you know, I think the chatbt moment is you know, I think the chatbt moment is you know, I think the chatbt moment is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "kind of like the iPod or iPhone moment kind of like the iPod or iPhone moment kind of like the iPod or iPhone moment"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "of our age of if you keep pushing the of our age of if you keep pushing the of our age of if you keep pushing the"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "frontier faster than other people, you can get really big gains occurring to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And I think that there are a couple you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think that there are a couple you"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "And I think that there are a couple"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "more of those that exist in our space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "more of those that exist in our space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "more of those that exist in our space"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "And so it's hard to do, but we're really And so it's hard to do, but we're really And so it's hard to do, but we're really"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "focused on trying to be uh the ones to focused on trying to be uh the ones to focused on trying to be uh the ones to"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "race toward those the fastest"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "It's race toward those the fastest"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "It's race toward those the fastest"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I feel like we're actually even in 2025"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I feel like we're actually even in 2025"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I feel like we're actually even in"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "the opening stages of this age of the opening stages of this age of the opening stages of this age of"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "intelligence"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What a revolution"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "You intelligence"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What a revolution"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "You intelligence"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "What a revolution"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "know, what are you personally most know, what are you personally most know, what are you personally most"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "excited about right now"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that excited about right now"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "I think that excited about right now"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "I think that"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "this is going to be a decade where just this is going to be a decade where just this is going to be a decade where just"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "your ability to build will be uh so your ability to build will be uh so your ability to build will be uh so"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Both people who already magnified"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Both people who already magnified"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Both people who already"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "that's their living and that's what they that's their living and that's what they that's their living and that's what they"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "do, but then I think it'll also become do, but then I think it'll also become do, but then I think it'll also become"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "accessible for tons more people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What a accessible for tons more people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "What a accessible for tons more people"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "time to be alive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "time to be alive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "time to be alive"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Michael Truell",
    "text": "Thanks for joining me today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Thanks for joining me today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Thanks for joining me today"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Garry",
    "text": "Thanks for having me"
  }
]