[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "thank you guys so much for joining us on this week's DeFi show we're going to be chatting on chain perpetuals there is a really nice little uh kind of a new segment into the DeFi"
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "world and I think that perpetuals and on-chain trading is going to be a new little niche that's going to be rising I think it's going to be the next greatest Innovation inside of just in general"
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "DeFi and the next kind of proof thesis of the actual Tech stack uh Evan Jeff thank you guys so much for joining me Evan are you excited today for today's chat I am excited because I consider myself a"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "bit of a degen and whenever we talk to some of these perp dexes especially on Arbitrum uh which is my favorite Layer Two to use with those fees that are just so low uh I start to get a little bit uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "degenerate and and start using it all the time every day and I can't focus on anything else so maybe I'm not excited maybe I should just cut the interview now um but Jeff we're happy to have you here"
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "man excited to talk about your favorite Hyperliquid um first and foremost though I am gonna I am gonna jump out here and say you guys are are building this on Arbitrum right I'm not confusing you"
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "with someone else am I so we have a custom L1 that runs almost everything and then we have a bridge from Arbitrum gotcha gotcha gotcha um so I want to start off with a with a hard question curveball here what do you"
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "think separates Hyperliquid from some of the other perps dexes out there what makes you guys stand out why would I as a d gen as a recovering addict to high leverage want to come over and use Hyperliquid"
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "liquid yeah there are a few things so the biggest one in terms of like long-term vision is that we're actually building it um on a custom L1 so the order book as well as the margining"
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um and positions and liquidations all happen on chain so I think there are a lot of solutions out there right now which kind of cut Corners I think it's easy if you spin up just one server to"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "do the order matching uh you can move pretty quickly and have the assets custody on some smart contract and have the matching Engine with special permissions to be able to match assigned"
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "orders um and that works to start but it really doesn't align with the long-term vision of DeFi which is that all of the operation of the exchange should be fully auditable and on chain"
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "so um that's like a long-term vision view um for a for a user though like day to day they may not care about that as much um but I will say that some interesting things to highlight on Hyperliquid are"
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that we have um for example this notion of vaults and their primitive built into the L1 itself um basically it's kind of like an evolution of copy trading um and we sort of as a demonstration of its flexibility"
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and power we have two protocol vaults which maybe we'll get to later but basically long story short they let users participate in a decentralized way in liquidations and the market making on"
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the exchange so the operation of the exchange itself is bootstrapped by the users it's democratized I think that aligns very well with how I guess like division of DeFi in general um and then apart from that there's just"
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "uh I think we put a lot of work into making the UI quick and snappy so despite being fully on chain the latency um from uh from an end user's perspective can feel quite comparable to"
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "centralized exchanges um if the throughput is extremely high so the gas fees are negligible and in fact during closed beta the gas is just entirely subsidized um and so could go on and on but maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "those are some of the highlights no that's awesome and I'm looking at the vaults right now one of the strategies is long only no stop loss so they've only got 100 yeah so these are"
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "created by users yeah it's completely it's completely decentralized so uh any user can go and create a vault they have to you know play by the rules of the vaults then the system itself so you"
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "know the liquidator has to maintain a minimum share um there'll be lockups and things like that but um other than that you know you can let your own creativity run wild yeah that's that's great so uh I guess"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "we might as well start there because we're already talking about the vaults um I I haven't seen this before the the so the Liquidator Vault I assume is you enter some amount into that and then"
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that's taking care of the liquidations uh does it does it then like sell off the assets or how does that work like as an automated sort of Vault process I haven't seen that before right so on a"
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "lot of other protocols um the liquidations are basically um decentralized in the sense that like anyone can come and snipe a liquidation so you see this on Aave and dYdX and a lot of other protocols and so the value"
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "of the liquidation really um ultimately it's an MEV thing so it accrues to the uh miners or some intermediary um and people compete um to take the juicy liquidation fill um and so in the liquidation Vault we're"
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "doing it in a completely different way which is that this Vault itself is a sole Liquidator um of positions on Hyperliquid so zooming out a bit when you enter a leveraged position there's some"
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "collateral you have to put up and you control that by The Leverage you set and whether it's across or isolated margin um but once um once you're uh unrealized P&L plus your collateral"
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "drops below What's called the maintenance margin um the platform needs to liquidate you um unless oh well if they let you run too close to zero then there's risk of the platform having to take on the bad"
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "debt and so this is where the Liquidator Vault comes in um and so it'll just monitor it's an automated strategy it monitors um all the positions that are open um and for anyone that is liquidatable"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it'll take it um take the position in the collateral over which is initially a positive P&L trade um but then like you said the subtlety is like you need to exit the position gracefully enough such that on"
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "average uh you're making money by doing this um and so there it leverages just a pretty simple Market making algorithm to slowly uh exit a position that it takes on and so this isn't guaranteed to make"
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "money but you can kind of see it's quite a positive expectancy trade and um so the Vault page should show you like cumulative graphs of P&L and P&L so since the vault is operating off of"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "this algorithm is that algorithm being completely determined and calculated off-chain right so all the vaults are currently running off-chain strategies but the part that is on chain is everything the"
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "vault is doing um so all the orders positions trade history deposits withdrawals it's in this case like the liquidations um these are all watching okay and I I definitely want to dig into"
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "a little bit of the component about the fact that you guys aren't necessarily just a platform that's on Arbitrum you guys have a bridge right now where people can actually go experience this"
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trading experience but the ultimate direction is to take this into kind of the app chain realm uh and really kind of make that thesis that you can build a Terra solution out once that can hyper"
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "focus on a very specific app in its function and I kind of want to dig a little bit deeper into how Hyperliquid is utilizing the cosmos SDK or just being able to build in that um their own your own L1 uh just"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "essentially how that is enhancing kind of the experience that Hyperliquid is providing compared to that of something that like GMX V2 may be providing right so we don't actually use the"
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "cosmos SDK we looked into it but decided we'd rather um take the underlying consensus which is Tendermint um and I guess it's now being developed under a Comet I think um basically taking the consensus uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "works is pretty battle tested um and then building out everything on top of it um on our own so we you know we want the code in Rust because we just think that's you know the best language"
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "out there for these kinds of systems problems um and we want to optimize uh everything in the stack so when you use Cosmos you kind of have to basically you're kind of locked into using these modules"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um or if you're going to write it from scratch you might as well just do it like we did um so right your question about like what about the L1 benefits us um particularly like writing a perp"
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "dexes I can't really imagine doing it not as an L1 if you want it to um actually be decentralized um so the problem with smart contracts is they're like a really nice way to get interoperability with say like other"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "token contracts um but when you're when you have a complex uh system like a perp dexes that has to handle you know funding margining liquidations all this stuff um it really starts to get underway like a super"
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "simple example that I like to give is um like if you want to handle funding payments every eight hours for example um if you have a smart contract on Arbitrum for example uh you need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "have somebody triggering that computation and that computation scales with a number of open positions so this is quickly becomes infeasible like you'll hit against the uh block gas"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "limit and so you have these non-atomic funding payments um and that's just one example but if you're writing an L1 you can just build build that right into the um I guess like State transition uh so"
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you can say if there's a block uh that increases the epoch number relative to the previous block then let's just like run these computations um and it's just like a it's just like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "much more elegant way to handle it and these examples are numerous uh I want to get back into like some of the trading ux um interestingly enough I'm just taking a look at the assets that you guys have"
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "listed and a lot of DEXs or at least perp dexes rather uh they they kind of make their they have their bread and butter Pairs and a lot of them will just be like you know they start with with"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "ETH Bitcoin and then maybe a couple other like top 10 coins you guys interestingly enough and and maybe this is a I'm sure this was planned um you guys are offering in your highest"
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "volume pairs are like Pepe dYdX Lido injective Render some tokens that I haven't really seen traded elsewhere um so I guess a couple questions here what how do you like decide on what"
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "assets or what pairs to list and then were you guys surprised to see uh things like Pepe you know blew to the top or was that like a strategic decision to say hey let's be one of the few places"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "where where you can go leverage up on a Pepe trade yeah we were somewhat surprised at the beginning but we've been seeing this pattern so I guess with new listings we're less surprised"
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um I think there's it's a bit of a it's a bit of a dry spell in trading so when something like Pepe comes up I think um it's like it kind of like breathes a sign of life into the otherwise like"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "dead communities um so we really we just want to give the people what they want so like ultimately the vision is uh anyone can list anything on Hyperliquid like the whole thing should just be decentralized obviously"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "we're not quite there yet and so um right now it's sort of more like Community feedback so people say hey I want to trade this or I want to try that and we kind of we just evaluate like"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "okay is it you know we're not going to list something that's just like complete like rug pull scam kind of thing but when you see yeah this Project's like getting some traction it's uh you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "obviously like do your own research and stuff but like it's like legit enough to be listed um broadly then we try to we'll say okay like let's let's make it available on Hyperliquid as well um and so if"
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "someone's trying to trade BTC or ETH like I guess every single DEX and CEX has this listed and um it's it's a tough tough sell right but uh you know where can you in a decentralized way"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um while maintaining custody of your own funds trade you know like you mentioned like Lido or Pepe Pepe like this is um especially being able to long and short with leverage I think it's uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it's a much it's a much smaller set of offerings so we're glad to kind of step in and fill that and and with uh Market making of all also a big point is that we have pretty strong just you know Day"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Zero liquidity um on anything that gets listed um and so uh we're pretty we're pretty just like ambitious with that and like move kind of quickly yeah I know a lot of people out there"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "are rubbing their hands thinking like wow here's an opportunity to short Pepe um because they think their meme's gonna end but then a lot of times that adds to the fuel of it popping up even further"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "so never Financial advice on this program but uh I just know in my DMs I've had some people say man where can I short this Pepe this is insane and uh maybe here it is so that's interesting"
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "though a lot of shorts are on Pepe the funding rate was pretty crazy for a few days um so it was very negative uh so we're just saying like generally people wanted to short um and so you had to pay for sure"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and and I imagine that's why the liquidation Vault has such a high APR as well yeah so that APR is compounded uh I guess so technically APY um since since Inception and like projected out to be a"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "year um so it kind of depends it just doesn't matter what's what's hot and trending like the Liquidator Vault will be there to backstop the platform and so yeah that's why it's safety-wise"
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "quite impressive I wanted to dig a little bit into the component of how you you have a pretty extensive documentation page set up where people can come in and set up their own Python and actually start"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "building up like automated trade strategies within their own Windows uh do you guys see there being more or just like more enhancements for this programmatic out like algorithmic trading or is it just going to kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just like leave it out there leave it enabled and just kind of give people the access to it and just kind of let that composability just unlock new strategies moving forward yeah this has been a pretty high"
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "priority for us from day one which is you know a truly decentralized um Hyper Stacks if it's good it should be super easy for people to integrate their automated strategies um and so coming from uh like our team"
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "kind of comes from the market making back on anyway so it was um pretty straightforward for us to implement this stuff and um it's got a really good reception um I think a lot of people are making YouTube"
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "tutorials and yeah live streams of them uh using the API and I think it's uh it's been it's been cool to see um and the plan I guess yeah is to continue supporting it like making it a"
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "full-fledged offering people say hey like how can I adjust my leverage uh in a programmatic way we didn't Implement that but give us a few hours and we'll crank it out and um examples like that so um I think this"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it's quite a unique offering in that it's hard like most dexes are kind of hard to interface with in an algorithmic way because you have to kind of translate what you're trying to do to"
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "this new setting of like smart contracts whereas Hyperliquid liquid feels a lot more like a centralized exchange than some contract you're interacting with so you can kind of just Port over what"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you've tried before on you know whether it's coinbase or Finance or wherever you you usually trade and we're also looking to integrate with a bunch of other API providers so um I guess we'll stay tuned for that but uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "people are definitely interested in sort of taking like um picking their sort of composable maybe strategies that are automated or Bots like a offering system or something and like uh putting that into Hyperliquid"
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and I think our API makes it super easy to do that yeah absolutely I definitely have seen the the YouTube tutorials just kind of blowing up in regards to uh Hyperliquid liquid and honestly"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that's kind of one of the reasons why I heard about the platform was just that programmability of building your automated strategies uh and there's a lot of people even trying to incorporate"
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "AI trying to use AI to make it do some decision trees and make actual decision making for the trading um I do enjoy that is there any kind of uh thinking on throttling or creating some sort of tier structure for how much"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you're accessing and how much you're actually trading on the API because I have a feeling there's going to be some crazy bots we're going to try to execute like hundreds of trades and like in a"
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "span of a minute or something yeah uh ultimately uh that's a good question I think right now the we're still pretty small so we're not sweating small stuff like that um but the system is very high"
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "throughput so it's not like ethereum where you're processing 12 transactions a second and yeah in that case you gotta really really be careful uh but the throughput is is there um lastly Benchmark it was at 20 you"
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "know it could it could withstand burst to twenty thousand um orders per second but obviously you know at a sustained rate that will just blow up uh State and other other things um so it's a real concern and the the"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "real answer to that is uh when we fully decentralize the L1 um and launch the token that um secures it through proof of stake then there will be some minuscule uh gas charge um and it will be it will just be so"
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "small that for an average user you basically just round it to zero orders of magnitude less than um even l2s um but but for somebody trying to DDOS the network and like spam it whether"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "intentionally or unintentionally uh this will kind of put a stop to that that's interesting now for those strategies that people are building whether it's you know with AI and all this complicated uh mumbo jumbo and jargon"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "and stuff that that Joseph likes to use or whether it's just through old-fashioned Killer Instinct and being a big brain Trader like the way I do it like we used to do back in my day uh is"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "there a way if these become user vaults that are like climbing up the leaderboard here for you to take Commission on that or is it just strictly just a leaderboard just to see and allow other people to kind of follow"
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "yeah so vaults currently are in a pretty pretty basic Bare Bones state so we'll definitely iterate on this based on feedback but currently how they're set up is vaults default to a 10 percent"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um we call it the leader P&L share we really like to think of it as more copy trading because that's what people are familiar with but um yeah so it's computed at the time of withdrawals so"
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "pretty simple like everything's proportional um so you are incentivized as a leader to do well um you know whatever your share is you're obviously trading that still and um someone else's share I guess if if"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you do well like they're agreeing like hey you know in exchange for letting this Beast Trader uh like Evan manage my money um I will uh you know I will I will sacrifice part of the game but it's only"
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "if it goes up um and I guess I also want to clarify though that the vaults that um are protocol vaults the Liquidator and the market maker um these have no no such like fees or uh P&L share at all"
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "so they're truly Community owned like every dollar in one of those vaults uh is is treated equally and I think that's super important uh because it's it's easy to have misalignment incentives um like"
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sometimes exchanges are as we've seen like Market making on their own books and doing all sorts of sketchy things uh and so we want to make it like as transparent as and as Democratic as"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "possible uh with those like protocols that's awesome to hear I don't think any any perpetuals on Hyperliquid platform is kind of pursuing this ability to be composable I think it's going I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "platforms when you compare it to something like GMX it's a different type of composability where it's essentially building on top of products um or you're for example like glp uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "with the creation of GLP there has been kind of this unlocked layer where people could build products on top of GLP and make it more leveraged and I don't know why you would want to make that more"
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "leverage but you can um and it seems like you guys are going with a different type of approach where it's essentially allowing that composability of having this open access to trading vaults uh almost running"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actual experiences of having like a hedge fund of sorts I even saw a job on LinkedIn the other day it was like like Junior crypto Trader it will give you 20K if you trade a certain amount we'll"
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "get we'll let you keep like 50 of the profits or whatever and it seems like that these vaults are like rather similar but an on-chain method of"
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "getting everyone just kind of together on the baseline of saying this is how much is in the vault here's how trading is going to execute um is that kind of a decision by Design and is this how you see trading kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "evolving with actual with an actual ledger and like an on-chain trading system I think for us it's mainly the goal is just give people the tools to do what they want um and building good tools and so I have"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "less of a view on whether in the future like what percentage of trading volume will be done through vaults um I think it's not for everyone right like you know some people shouldn't"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "shouldn't be sure to like they're Degen enough on their own I just don't want to be liquidating everyone but um but it gives you the power to do that and it really is it really is like I"
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "viewed as like a tool um building exchanges is the protocols it's like a very it's like essential for the operation of the platform and sort of um you know liquidity and liquidations"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and liquidations are just if you don't have those you don't have an x uh a perp X so I mean for those I have a strong view like this is like very important to the operation of the platform and you can see right now like"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "almost every trade on the other side right now is is HLP the the liquidity provider because well it's just it's just early and people haven't had a chance to scale up like massive market"
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "making strategies yeah and so like the day the day Zero liquidity is super important to us um yeah does that answer your question yeah yeah again it answers it I think that we're we're really we're in a"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really interesting phase of just like in general perpetuals on chain um and it's interesting to see the different types of um almost approaches and the theses of how a community should"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "be interacting with the platform um Hyperliquid really has kind of it has kind of defined a new Edge to that entire experience and I guess I wanted to just like hit on a little bit"
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "on that moat or just that Competitive Edge or that competitive Factor um with that upcoming release of uh GMX V2 um is there any thinking that is kind of um guiding you guys and understanding"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like there is a major kind of competitor in the space uh any types of uh just a little bit of insight into you guys is thinking with that competition on the horizon right so I don't know about GMX V2 in"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "particular I don't as far as I know not many details have been released but um maybe not um but I think I think any sort of yes I don't have insight there but I guess we'll see I'm super excited to see the"
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "confidence like what you know dYdX released there like V for uh like outlined the other day and I was like reading that and I found that very interesting I think it's like very cool"
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to see people take different approaches the same problem um that being said like I feel very strongly that we take the correct approach uh we thought long and hard and I iterated and built this you know like"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "some people don't know this we actually started as a like Arbitrum more like Arbitrum based DEXs where Trader brings settled on Arbitrum as well and we actually ran this for a decent amount on test now"
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "until we just like couldn't it was just too hard to actually build we wanted to build and so the L1 was by necessity not just so much gimmick um so yeah I think like building a custom L1 with the performance profile"
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that it has which is you know sub 0.5 second latency um tens of thousands of TPS and growing that even further I think it's like it's essential like if you're building a dexes yeah like if if you're just"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "looking to you know make a little bit of money over the next year yeah you can cut all these all sorts of corners but we're not in it to do that we have the vision is that dexes are better than"
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "centralized exchanges and the only reason people don't know that yeah and still trade on centralized exchanges is that a good DEX hasn't been built and so taking that kind of long-term"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "perspective um we're willing to work you know I think building the L1 set us back by many months in terms of like being able to ship the product but like we find it so important that we're happy to do it"
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the right way um and you know the same same thing with sort of building out these like vaults are actually a very tricky feature to implement there are a lot of edge cases and building it in as a primitive I"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "think is um the I guess there's a reason it doesn't exist too much elsewhere and integrating it natively with the L1 order book dexes I think is is going to be essential for like how these things operate and you"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "know we take the time to do that um but yeah I mean still shipping pretty quickly and kind of like when users want something we we evaluate it and just crank it out if enough people want it"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um so that's kind of how we operate and we'll we're welcome to see the competition we're pretty it honestly it's just like at this point the pie is so small we're just like happy to see"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "them like DEX market share grow as a whole I think yeah is like just great to see regardless of who's who's doing it yeah no it's it's exciting to see that you guys have uh it's exciting to hear"
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that you guys were building this out on Arbitrum and it just kind of eventually hit you guys that building what you wanted to build in terms of just a true product Market fit and also just"
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "optimally the good product it's interesting to hear that you guys really identified that building your own L1 was just going to be the best route uh to conceive of the product so definitely"
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "don't want to don't want you guys to treat yourself too harshly uh in terms of saying that you guys haven't been shipping products because I think that um being able to develop in that in that"
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Paradigm of being on a controlled L1 and then going and deploying your own for this specific uh function uh it's really interesting because it seems like other teams have also come to that conclusion"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "dYdX including um and and it just I think it is going to be a provable thesis that it will unlock better experiences for users um so just hats off to you guys for for realizing that and also just kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "going up going through that and actually realizing that that's what needs to happen yeah Evan go for it in that one um yeah I just want to Echo Joseph's sentiment there uh I think this is this is great I mean"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "cool combination of trading and like fun with the vaults and the leaderboard and stuff um I do think we're starting to see sort of a shift in the way that these dexes work where you"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know even like a year ago what what options did you have to trade perps decentralize or use leverage in a decentralized manner most people were on uh FTX probably at that point or whatever you know so"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "um you know it's it's not just in this it's not just something that you guys are like building for the hell of it but it's it's a necessity and um I hope that you know more and more people start to move"
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "away from because like you know I say this all the time uh there's so many users that are like hey I'm a crypto you know I'm in crypto or are you trading crypto and it's like oh well cool like"
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "what do you do and they're like oh I just log into coinbase or I log into binance and it's like all right well that's I mean yeah you trade crypto but like you might as well just be using"
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like a bank account at that point uh it's not really like you're missing the whole purpose of self-custody and so um seeing the user experience come further along with with what you guys"
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "are doing I think is super important um I wanted to ask a more uh specific question uh being that the the trades are going against the uh what do you call the Hyperliquid LP the HLP uh does that limit then open interest"
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you guys have limits on that or how does that work no there are no limits uh well no limits baked into the protocol unlike GMX um the key difference is on GMX you only trade against the GLP pool uh and so you"
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "know that's literally a collection of assets and if you want to long one on Leverage you borrow that from the pool and trade it so there's naturally limited there um whereas HLP is is simply a strategy"
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "running on Hyperliquid so because it has no privilege in that sense and um the vision is it will it will synergize with other market makers coming in and like we welcome people to come in and"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "provide more liquidity and it makes markets more efficient whereas on GMX it's not possible you have to trade against the house basically right right okay that's cool so then there's there's"
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like that traditional sort of market makers can come in and trade and provide liquidity how they want but then if you're you know uh if it's so easy a caveman can do it if you just want to"
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "get into the vaults is that a correct way to describe it um I guess so I mean probably I imagine if they're enough vaults out there picking the right ones uh becomes more of a it becomes a quantitative like challenge"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "in and of itself but but yeah we're hoping with the protocol vaults at least for the for the initial period of uh you know retail interest outweighing professional market maker interest uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you should be handsomely rewarded for being that liquidity um that being said I do think you know within with any of all there are there risks and I we're just we're not in the business of like promoting any specific"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um person's strategy uh it's just a it's a it's a well-oiled machine I guess uh of course not but did you see humble degen trading uh apy she's killing it yeah it's it's impressive to me"
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sometimes I go through and see the trades that they're making and uh um blows my mind yeah how these people yeah I'm not a discussion created on my own so I don't really know how to I mean"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "maybe it's I'll just say it's it's probably skill they probably like know something that I don't there's definitely uh an interesting uh kind of just community rallying uh in regards to"
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "getting these strategies booted up uh because I was part of I'm in a Discord shout out to the humble farmer Army uh and in that Discord uh there was just so much hype for getting access to Hyperliquid"
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and also just building out strategies uh that a referral link tree was started where people were sharing the referral links to get into the platform uh and I I could tell that"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "immediately the hype was built building so that people can actually just go in and actually start trading just the like insane uh insane positions and I like the fact that it's docs where you can"
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "see these bullets and see how they're executing trades uh I just think that adds a lot more to the community element and having that ability to see what's going on yeah you not only see their trades and"
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "positions you can also just you can project the performance you can say like over the last 30 days like let me look at the the account value and if that line is you know bouncing with 90"
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "drawdowns then up 200 like I gotta know like at that point you're probably a little bit sketched out whereas if it's a little bit more of a consistent line higher sharp strategy you might feel"
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "more confident so we just want to make data available to people um and this is all on chain like that's another thing like right now we maintain and improve the front end but ultimately you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "it's all about the data on chain and people can come in and visualize it however they want we've even got some chatter in the comments here uh where someone said PBR Vault will come back eventually is that"
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Pabst Blue Ribbon vault is that for guys that drink PBR because I'd get into that it's one of the users [Laughter] he probably likes PBR yeah Jeff you you mentioned a little bit earlier you"
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "hinted at uh true decentralization and having a token to uh secure the platform here is there any information on that uh feel free to not have any information most people choose not to but uh for"
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "anybody that's listening or or uh or watching on the replay maybe you can drop some some hints or details about that ah well I may be disappointing here but uh not no information on that uh all I"
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "can say is it's it's an L1 so it needs to have a native token uh that's how proof of stake works um but as for details it's just it's just not in our priorities right now I think a lot of projects issue the token"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "too quickly and then that becomes the project uh it's all about it's all about how to get this token like what the price is and how do I pump the price of the token and I think that just makes"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "incentives kind of weird so right now it's we're trying to just focus on the product and the users you know getting more users and you know when users do come to the platform making sure that"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "this is in order to magnitude better than anything else they've used and that they will like convert uh and building the community that way it's harder it's slower it's less gimmicky and like you"
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "don't get the you don't get the like marketing boost of the token but uh we think it's the right way to do it I I agree with you and it's another common trope that I've probably repeated a"
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "million times but I'll say it again you know when Uber came out I didn't own Uber tokens but it was just so cool I was like holy I need to tell every single one of my friends that we can"
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "just summon a car to come pick us up uh especially being in Pittsburgh where there's like not taxis and now with crypto it's like you can provide me no value but you give me a token or an"
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "airdrop or something and all of a sudden I'm like the biggest show for some piece of app that means nothing or does nothing uh so I I appreciate that approach um I guess another question sort of in"
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the same vein uh do you see the layer one becoming a primitive for other applications built on top of it or do you want it to just be just for the Hyperliquid Dex platform yeah that's a good question uh maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sometime down the line but I think there are enough general purpose L1s that it's not clear why we need to build another one um whereas so so like our our goal really is like we want to build this"
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "purpose-built DEXs because that's a product that is sorely needed like a good one um especially after FTX and um people want it uh and so we're gonna build it and the L1 is really like a tool to get us"
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "there um and I guess we kind of talked about it earlier in that question which uh basically I I think it's like to build a good order book DEXs like you it needs to be on an L1 if you want to be fully"
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "decentralized uh and that's that's that's a whole perspective on it right now I mean we're focus on like this one product and I think that's a big advantage for us um I kind of view it like it's probably"
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like how Apple views some of their decisions which is like we want to give this end user experience and so you know when when Steve Jobs um and the whole team there was making the iPhone uh there were no you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "touch screen vendors or like they had to build the infrastructure like um invent things along the way and like build it up until the final product that users use like that that is what ends up"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "being revolutionary um and so that's really our our Focus really is on the product and not on some like General L1 narrative that's interesting that's a difference that's a different app chain thesis"
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that I've heard uh I don't think I think that's kind of a very distinguishing Factor uh versus what most people are doing in the cosmos when they're building their own app chain they're"
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really surrounding itself around this like L1 token idea and the L1 token concept and building out your own block space uh it's kind of one of the reasons why there's like an ongoing debate that"
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the Atom Cosmos chain itself is just useless to the entire ecosystem uh because everyone else is like launching up their own l1s with a specialized function so it's interesting insight for"
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sure yeah I think though I think Atom will have some value accrual with the shared security stuff um I think I mean I think that's a really cool model infrastructure is important yeah yeah I"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "think this these kinds of projects are important maybe what I'm saying I'm not trying to like on general purpose L1 so much it's more just that uh we feel like they're is there's not an obvious reason to"
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "build another one um other than you know if you want to raise some quick money or something but like uh we're really focused like what do people want and maybe one maybe one perspective is like"
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "let's say you have a really really good general purpose L1 like you know what are you going to build on it like a DEX so uh yeah that's like that is like the DEX application uh it is the DEX yeah I"
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "agree with you the killer application so far has been proven to be a DEX so just cut just cut to the Chase and build the DEX everyone just start building a DEX I think that's what everyone should do"
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "speculators man that's that's us come for the Speculator stay for the sound money somebody said that once um a small detail question that I forgot to ask as well uh what's what is the uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "collateral what do you guys accept only USDC right now um okay I think there will probably I think when users ask for it we're pretty happy to add other stable coins but I think apart from that like maybe BTC and"
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "ETH but it's really not on the roadmap like for us these are marginal improvements that make make the like expose the platform to a whole lot of other risk and so you kind of saw this with FTX where they let you"
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "collateralize with your coins like other coins and like uh I guess we all saw how that went so I'm kind of cautious about that I think like if you really want to use your other tokens as"
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "collaterals you can you can you can you know use Aave to borrow USDC against that and then deposit USDC that's this is a nice example of composability like we're a DEX we're not a borrow lending"
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "margining protocol as well that makes sense not Financial advice anything he just said by the way don't don't go thinking that we told you to do that um Joseph that's all I have yeah no that's"
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that's basically all I have uh Jeff where do you want people to go where do you want people to stay in tune with what's going on with Hyperliquid and uh in general what's upcoming uh any any"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Alpha you want to drop any big releases upcoming uh yeah so to to stay up to date we have a Twitter at Hyperliquid um follow me chameleon Jeff uh I tried to write as much about Hyperliquid as possible but the main"
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "account does so well that um you know I'm relegated to just writing about Market making sometimes which is a past life uh but um yes for oh we also have a Discord you know that's I think that's where most of"
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the engagement in the community building happens you know we try to be really active and I love when people come in and just drop their feedback or you know share screenshots of things that went"
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "wrong um yeah to just go go to the Discord if you're serious about using it and uh um yeah as for Alpha I guess we don't really we're not really into like teasing Alpha before things"
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "happen so you know with Hyperliquid I guess Hyperliquid was released just yes pretty good timing on your against this part but we've been testing that that was just released Okay cool so it was I guess it was just"
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "announced so it had been in test mode you know we've just been like running it for maybe almost a month and there had been a steady like you know trickling in of like people noticing it"
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and using it and saying hey like what is this thing like why haven't you guys talked about it and for us it's just you know when we're when we're relatively confident something is ready for more"
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "users we'll announce it but otherwise it's just we build and we uh release things so uh best way to stay tuned on Alpha is just like join the Discord follow the Twitter uh and uh yeah"
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "awesome well congratulations Jeff this looks awesome I'm excited for uh for you guys and all the progress that you're going to make um oh did we lose them I think we lost them on the Hyperliquid Rec validator"
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "uh did you lose me you got back you're getting some turbulence on the ocean man I'm sorry the Arctic Ocean is really low hello hello hello hello hello can anybody hear me yes we can hear you but"
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you're very delayed sir ah all right can you hear us now I can hear you I never lost you okay well you're back now if you want to go back on your little rant oh uh liquid spirit says come trade on Hyperliquid today"
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "wrecked validator says Jeff show my referral link please and thank you and that's PBR and I'm looking at his stats and his apis minus 100 so I don't know if that's a good referral link to share"
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that's about as bad as it gets I don't know if PBR is going to make a comeback but I'm cheering for your Rec validator um okay that's it that's it for me sorry I'm hitting some high waves here hitting"
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "some highways Jeff thank you so much for joining Evan thank you for joining us from the Arctic Ocean on your submarine it's been a pleasure hope you degen have fun exploring Hyperliquid X but as"
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "always nothing you saw or we or what we discussed today is financial advice go enjoy what is available out there with your own Sovereign access to these DeFi Primitives have a good one we'll see you"
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "on the next episode of The Bite show thanks"
  }
]