[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "100,000 robots for $50,000 each. That's around $5 billion of revenue. Now, okay, what if I sell a million robots? That's $50 billion. You're getting to almost the scale of some of the biggest"
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "companies in the world. A million robots is really nothing, right? Cuz Amazon has millions of workers and Walmart has millions of workers. And what if I sell tens of millions? Okay, that is now 500"
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "billion. And so, you can see there's a really clear path. Trillions of dollars of revenue and that would imply tens of trillions of dollars of market cap. And that doesn't even consider stuff like"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Jeban's paradox where what's going on guys? Today we have a very important conversation with Andrew Kang. Andrew is one of the best investors in the crypto world. But the last couple of years he"
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "has spent a majority of his time focused on the robotics industry. Today he serves as the CEO of Robo Strategy, a publicly traded closed end fund specifically focused just on investing"
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "in the robotics industry. In this conversation, we talk about how big the market is, why traditional venture capitalists haven't been interested in it, why Andrew thinks that this is a"
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "place that his capital can compound over a long period of time, how he personally built the conviction to actually invest a large sum of money into these companies, and then why he chose to use"
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "a public vehicle to go and invest in these companies. This conversation, I think, is one that you guys will look back for years and years to come. I highly suggest that you pay attention. I"
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "think that Andrew is a very special investor, but I also think the strategy in the industry that he's going after, it's something that people don't yet understand, but something that I'm"
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "personally very convicted in, and I think that there's a lot of opportunity here. Here's my conversation with Andrew Kang. Andrew, you're one of the best crypto investors in the world. You've"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "had an incredible track record over the years, but now you're spending a lot more time on humanoid robots and robotics in general. Why the shift in attention and capital to a market that"
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "maybe most people don't understand that well yet?"
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah, I mean there's a lot of reasons we're we're finally going to have robots, right? It was always, you know, this big dream in sci-fi. You'd see robots that were shaped like humans"
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "doing everything a human could do. And we're finally getting to the point where that is that's possible. It's not a 50-year thing. It's not a 20-year thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "This is probably more so like a 3 to 5 year thing, right? Where you start to see humans humanoids in everyday life."
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Now, when you think about these humanoid robots, I always go to there's different ways that people envision these fitting into our lives. There is like humanoids that are in factories. There is videos"
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uh whether they're AI generated or real of demos where they're doing things in our homes. Then there is the like maybe Jetson style like they're like walking down the street walking your dog or"
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "doing stuff in, you know, society."
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> What is your vision for how humanoid robots are going to actually fit into um kind of our future?"
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I I think you know almost all of the above is possible in the future, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um you're going to have humanoids act the same way and participate in jobs the same way that humans do. Some of them they might be focused on a specific job."
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "They might be a service worker at a restaurant. Some of them they might be working a specific factory job. Some of them might be your personal assistant at home. Right? I think the beauty of"
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "humanoids is that they're adaptable to the everyday world. Right? They can go up and down the same buildings that we do. They can use the same tools that we can do. And they in general are just"
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "very multi-purpose and very adaptive, right? And that's that's the difference between a humanoid robot and say a more application specific robot. And I think that's why you see you know uh you see"
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the prevalence of similar concepts or similar items in everyday life like your your smartphone for example right it's very general purpose I can play music on it I can use it as a map to navigate the"
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "world I can call people with it and in the same way a humanoid has such great multi-purpose functionality that it makes sense that it can permeate so many different aspects of of of life in"
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "general."
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> So when you think about the total addressable market, like what do you think it looks like for humanoids?"
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I think to understand that you have to look at what is the total market for human labor. It's something like 50% of GDP. It's, you know, some people put it at $40 trillion, $60 trillion. Seems"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like a massive number, right? Um the way that I would think about it is a humanoid can do everything that a human can do in the future, right? but it's doesn't need a rest. It doesn't need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "take breaks. Doesn't need to go on vacation. It's not going to quit on you."
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So, you don't need to hire and, you know, retrain somebody else. A lot of these like jobs in factories, they suck and there's really high turnover. And that is a really high overhead cost to"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "having physical uh um you know, labor."
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And you you don't have any of that with with robots, right? And so, one robot could theoretically perform uh the function of maybe three humans, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "uh assuming it's able to work multiple shifts. And so if we take that perspective of well um you know robot robots are going to replace most of physical labor then you can also maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "do a bottoms up analysis where you say hey look one robot $50,000. Uh how does that compare to a human? Uh well a human I have to pay you know every single year. Uh robot that's a onetime fee."
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Maybe I have to pay a little bit for electricity. Maybe you have to pay a little bit for maintenance. And but when I look at it from a per hour basis, right, and I I expect this robot to last"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "multiple years, that math gets you down to around $2 per hour. And in America, you know, you take the all-in cost of, you know, your average worker and, you know, their bonuses, their insurance,"
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and everything else associated with it, you know, you get to something like $35, $40. And so it's it's a no-brainer in terms of the cost structure. Um, but even if you compare it to, you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "low-income countries, uh, like India or the Philippines or Indonesia, it's honestly it's hard to beat $2 an hour there as well, especially with all the benefits that, you know, we discussed."
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, and then so I think you can come to an understanding that look, it's going to be a lot of robots. We sell billions of cell phones every single year. We sell hundreds of millions of PCs and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "cars, right? And so probably sell a similar amount of of robots. And so but like what if we just sell 100,000 robots for $50,000 each?"
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "That's around $5 billion of revenue. I mean you you you're making that much revenue. You're already I would say like a hundred billion plus business potentially. Um assuming your margins"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "are good. Um, and now, okay, what if I sell a million robots?"
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "That's $50 billion. It's, you know, you're getting to almost the scale of some of the biggest companies in the world. What if I sell But a million robots is really nothing, right? Because"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Amazon has millions of workers and uh Walmart has millions of workers. And what if I sell tens of millions? Okay, that is now 500 billion. And so you can see there's a really clear path in terms"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of like how we can potentially achieve achieve trillions of dollars of revenue and that would imply tens of trillions of dollars of market cap. And that doesn't even consider stuff like Jeban's"
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "paradox where you're lowering the cost of labor of of of the product. You're actually increasing the market size, right? Because now things that were too expensive to do before are now"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "economical. They might make sense. And so that top down type of sizing is I think really puts it into perspective if you look at but if you look at something like Apple right like people would have"
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "thought you were crazy if you told them in 2006 that this would be a $3 trillion company today cuz before the iPhone came out it was like what $50 billion company and that you know 3 trillion would have"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "been bigger than like most of the big companies combined back then. And so I think people really underappreciate the amount of value creation that can happen with really transformative uh techn"
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "technological jumps."
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Now there's a lot of people who I would say are kind of Monday morning quarterbacks, right? Or they'll sit and they'll say, \"Oh, I think humanoid robots are going to be big.\" And they do"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "nothing about it. You have taken an immense amount of personal capital over the last couple of years and you have put it into some of the leading private companies in the humanoid and robotic"
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "space. And when I say uh you know immense amount of personal capital, I think some of the investment sizes are 8 figure personal checks that you wrote into these companies. And so just talk"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "about to get that level of conviction."
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Is it this is for sure going to happen?"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Is there some level of asymmetry? Like what was the thing that convinced you, okay, these humanoid robots are actually going to be here and they're going to be as pervasive as you're saying? Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's it's it's interesting because when I first started investing in humanoids and robotics in general, it was definitely not consensus."
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I found out about figure AI around 2023, late 2023, and I had no experience investing in the space, right? And so I thought it was really exciting because Chachi PT had just come out and it was"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "clear that the path of AI development was going to dramatically accelerate."
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so, not only were we going to get digital AGI, but we were going to get physical AGI. And the intelligence portion was always the bottleneck to making robots work. And that was that"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "was going to be solved. Um, and so with that in mind, I went out to a bunch of my traditional, you know, VC network and I asked them, hey, like what do you think about this company?"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "All of them told me not to invest. Um, and I think a lot of the reason came down to the fact that the robotics industry historically has not produced a lot of winners, a lot of big venture"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "scale outcomes."
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, there's a lot of challenges with developing robotics. Um, the hardware iteration cycle is very long. It's very expensive and even after getting them to work, the deployment can still be very"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "messy and expensive. Um, I think what a lot of investors failed to appreciate was that the development of physical intelligence was going to change all of that, right? And so the more I kind of dug into this"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "investment, the more I kind of realized how underappreciated it was because I tried I, you know, I didn't even invest directly at first. I invested through four SPVS. Uh, and so when you're getting all these SPVS"
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "thrown at you, right, you're getting access to a deal which is supposedly supposed to be a really great deal, it you think, oh wow, am I getting ripped off, right? Like, >> why am I so"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> why? Yeah, why why am I getting so much access? Why are the top VCs in the world not picking this up? And the more I dug into it, the more I realized it was more so people, you know, had certain"
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "industries that they were comfortable investing with, certain thesis, and deviating from that is it can be very uncomfortable. You have to take a lot of risk. But there was no I don't think there was any question"
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that there's product market fit for humanoid robots once these actually work, right? It was just a question of like when when are these actually going to work and is this a team uh is this"
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the right founder to make it happen. And so the more I dug into it the more I actually wanted to increase you know my initial investment from a million to 5 million eventually to around 19 million."
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And at the time I had not even spoken to to Brett the founder. uh you know I had spoken to some people on his leadership team and I had spoken to a lot of other investors in the round but I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "doing all the research and understanding the background of Brett that the team he had assembled which were some of the most world-class roboticists um understood that this was one of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "teams that was very likely going to make it happen."
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Let's talk a little bit more about Figure AI. So, you wrote a $19 million check initially, you know, kind of a collection of different investments. Um, what was it about them that they're"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "doing differently, right? What I've seen the demos online. I think a lot of people have seen those now. I've talked to Brett before. Um, but what is the thing that you think they either do"
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uniquely well or the thing that you think will continue to be a moat for them as they go to build this business?"
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> There there's so many things. I mean, I I think the the first is the caliber of the team that that Brett assembled. Um, you know, there there were a few other humanoid robotics companies that have"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "been around for longer than I figure by the time that they were incorporated, but their rate of iteration and their their speed of execution was completely unmatched in terms of what I was seeing"
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "in terms of progress uh month after month, quarter after quarter. Um, if if you look at if you just think about the the challenge that's in front of you in terms of how how do I solve general"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "purpose robotics, right? It's one of the most difficult challenges in the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You need PhDs in computer vision. You need PhDs in uh robot behavior. You have PhDs in um uh you know uh hand engineering or I don't think there's even a PhD for that, right? But you need"
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "experts in hand engineering. Uh you need experts in uh developing fleet orchestration software. And so you have all of these different special fields that there are maybe only a hundred of people that are really"
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "competent, right, in in these specific fields. And you need all of them within one company. And to do that is a huge challenge. And so you need a founder that that can do that and to raise the"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "billions of dollars of capital that you need to make that company a success. And so Brett was really one of the only few founders I had found at the time that was able to do that. You know, I had"
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "looked at the other humanoid companies in the space. And you know, outside of Tesla, right, nothing nothing was really comparable. What's interesting to me is humanoid robots seem to be very similar"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "to the drone industry where there's a ton of um you know uh experimentation maybe even speculation at the earliest stages of the technology. There are a couple of companies that are able to get"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "some sort of innovative breakthrough but then those companies really struggle to commercialize the innovation that they've done. So you either have kind of very technical teams that are able to"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "work on the hardware and software of a drone but then they have a hard time actually building a business around it."
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "What I think is happening in humanoid robots is we are now starting to see teams that not only are good at the technology but they also have a track record and experience of actually"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "building a business as well. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Is that your experience in in terms of why maybe now is the moment uh why these are actual companies not just kind of cool Boston dynamic robot you know demos or something?"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Technical experience is important. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Don't don't get me wrong, but I think sometimes um investors can overindex on maybe you know like a PhD or professor type of talent uh which I think is instrumental to have on the team but if"
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you look at Brett's background for example you know his first company Veter was a company focused basically on recruitment right and so he understood and built the skill set of how do I find"
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and attract the best talent in the world and the second company Archer which he took public I think it's still around you know5 to10 billion um after he took it public in a spack a few years ago"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I mean he was innovating a whole new type of complex machinery that really hadn't existed before commercially and that type of skill set to create you know almost like a stepwise change in"
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "um you know what machines can do is really unique in America I I think you see that in some other parts of the world, but America has outsourced a lot of their hardware design and their manufacturing, right,"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to places like China. And you know, you you look at some of the biggest hardware companies in America like Apple, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like the phone, iPhone, it's getting better, but only very marginally year-over-year. It's not a really big change in terms of th this is like a completely new invention. Mhm. Now you"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "mentioned China. Obviously uh anyone paying attention to the space has seen incredible demos and videos coming China. I have seen half marathons run. I think they had a robot Olympics where"
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "they were doing all kinds of different events. Uh China is known to be very good at building hardware as you mentioned. They have a great supply chain. They've somewhat become the manufacturer of the world in many"
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "people's eyes."
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Why do you think the United States or any American company can beat China at this game?"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Oh man, the the US versus China robotics topic I think we can talk about for a while, right? Um look, China is undoubtedly uh undefeated in in manufacturing. Um and I think they"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "will continue to be. But I would evaluate robotics companies on three competencies. Uh one is their ability to execute on high rate manufacturing."
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Second one is their hardware design. Uh and the third one is their AI capabilities. Right. And we already covered manufacturing. I would say China's very strong at. There are some companies like Tesla and Figure that are"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "getting very strong at that in America."
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh and when it comes to hardware design, you have, you know, I would say Figure and Tesla at the top in America. And in China, you have, I would say, you know, maybe like 100 plus different companies. and"
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're all in various degrees of I would say excellence in terms of how good their their hardware is. If you look at Unitry, for example, their hardware is great for research and for"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "entertainment purposes. You see them doing back flips, uh you see them dancing, but you can't take that same G1 robot and and put it in in factory and have it lift 30 lb payloads, right? It's"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "going to fall apart. And so it's not like and but it's also not like Unitry can't design robots that are more durable. It's just not the market that they've decided to pursue at at first."
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um that being said, um the AI piece is is is I think what is underappreciated that the US is ahead on in terms of physical intelligence. uh the top physical AI labs in America I think have"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "some meaningful edge over the leading Chinese labs um and without the robot brain right the the robot's pretty useless and so you know if that trend continues then maybe we do see some"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "dependency from the Chinese companies on US physical intelligence I I think what is also underappreciated is that the amount of technology that's developed is not always onetoone with"
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the amount of value that's created. And so you can have really amazing robot technology come out of China. You can have that industry flourish. And it doesn't always mean that's results in"
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the biggest market cap or the biggest win for shareholders, right? And you've seen the same dynamic play out for cars, EVs, and for cell phones. China makes amazing cell phones and they make"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "amazing electric vehicles. If you look at BYYD, I think a lot of people have a lot of great things to say about their cars."
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "They sell more cars than Tesla, but their market cap is, you know, onetenth 120th of Tesla, right? And their margins are significantly lower. And that's an issue across all Chinese, I would say,"
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "hardware companies in general is that they play in an ultra competitive landscape. And that is partially kind of encouraged by the government, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "They're putting out these subsidies and they're giving support to these companies and they want a wide field of these players to exist."
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But the end result of that I would say is more so to benefit society and the consumers within the nation rather than the companies themselves. Obviously the companies have to be successful. They"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have to they have to grow economic value. At the same time, it doesn't mean that they're going to be as big as say the biggest American companies, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like Apple's the biggest phone company in America, even though Huawei and Xiaomi make great phones."
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> What what's interesting to me is there's not only the capital markets that you uh participate in, but there's also the regulatory environment that you uh uh participate in, and it seems to me like"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uh in the United States, there is a very um big conversation happening around, you know, self-driving cars or other forms of robotics and autonomy. We obviously see lots of people yelling and"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "screaming about data centers and it just feels like there's a lot of scrutiny and I would even argue that maybe society is fractured a little bit on is this stuff good, is this stuff bad, whether it's in"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "software or hardware form."
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I don't see a lot of that conversation coming out of China. I don't live in China though. So I I don't know kind of what the the temperature is if you will in the local communities or in society"
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "in general. But what I do think is really interesting is the success of the companies in America is almost despite all of that debate, all of that uh scrutiny and it feels like the Chinese"
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "companies are getting immense amount of uh subsidies and and lots of help from the government. And the reason I kind of paint this picture of, you know, two different uh maybe relationships between"
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the public and private sector >> is I do wonder if the American companies benefit in the long run from having to do the hard thing versus having the Chinese companies, if there is subsidies. Like I've heard rumors that"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the Chinese government is actually subsidizing people to buy the humanoid robots."
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> So, hey, if you want a factory full of humanoid robots, we'll give you some money to subsidize. I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe you have some insight into it. But it does feel like"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "maybe in the US there's less government support and therefore the companies have to be able to actually innovate and actually be successful in the free market much more than a Chinese company."
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Would you say that's true?"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I would say there's there's some truth to it but I would say government support would not you know it would not be negative for the industry."
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I I would say it's very positive for the industry and I think we should have more government support. And there are also there are also a lot of initiatives being pushed by lawmakers and lobbyists"
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to uh create more support for the industry. Um the the interesting thing about what's happening in China is that yes there's a little bit of what you described in terms of you know companies"
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "forming JVS almost with local governments and you know them establishing say a center to do robotics research collect training data and you know that center might also be a big purchaser of of robots from you know one"
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of the companies that had helped establish that JB and so there's a little bit of circularity going on. Um I wouldn't say that is um misleading in terms of their sales cuz those robots are being sold for a"
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "good purpose, right? They're sold for collecting training data. I think there's a question around how useful is that training data and how effective are they at at collecting it. Um but I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "more importantly, it's just when you have say 100 players competing against each other, it you're you're going to squeeze down margins. you're going to have a bunch of IP transfer as well in a"
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "in and you know an environment like China and so there's going to be a lot of innovation at one company but then it might quickly leak out to all the other companies right from talent flowing back"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and forth so much whereas if you only have a few companies in America and maybe they're geographically separated you're going to have less of that um an important point I also want to bring up"
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "since you mentioned regulation is that there is there there's I I think been very obviously a big push to re-industrialize America, right? To bring back manufacturing for us to be independent on our own"
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "supply chains to build things in America generally. And to do that, we we need our own domestic robotics industry. We can't rely on other nations. And if you've seen what happened with EVs,"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "right, we don't really have Chinese EVs in America. Why is that? Well, the reason is because, well, one, Biden put 100% tax on Chinese EVs during his administration. And then two, the FTC"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also outlawed, you know, vehicles from certain countries that have, you know, software from those countries. And they have telecommunications devices, right, from those countries. Think about what"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "are robots? Well, they're things that can see and hear everything in the world, and they're filled with telecommunication devices. And so I I have a hard time seeing the American government allowing, you know, robots"
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "from other nations be the dominant player in America. Uh and there are certain bills that are trying to be passed right now that are centered around this, right? That are explicitly banning robots from certain"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "countries um from at first being purchased by fedally funded organizations, but you know there's this concept that that will expand more broadly to you know everyday life. How much of those bills are targeting uh we"
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "want to encourage domestic manufacturing and and help American companies? Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Versus they are explicitly saying there's a security concern from XYZ nation internationally and that's what we're doing right because those are you know related but maybe two different"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "things. It's one thing if you say hey we just want our companies to flourish."
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "That's kind of what tariffs are very protectionist type you know approach."
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It's another thing if maybe uh the US government's relationship with Huawei where they explicitly said we believe that there are security concerns and we want to target this. How do you look at"
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the regulation that's getting put forward or legislation? I >> I I think both are important things that legislators currently care about. I mean you you saw it with Tik Tok, right? I"
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "mean that originally being from a Chinese related parent was a really big deal and the US government didn't want certain governments to have that sort of power or potential surveillance capability."
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so it made them give it up. And so that that is 100% going to be a big concern is this national security risk."
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "if you have robots not just in the Pentagon but in people's homes or in important businesses that it's a risk."
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and so the other part you asked about was around uh encouraging and incentivizing the current domestic industry, right? There's a lot of ways to do it. Uh you know you can invest in"
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the companies themselves like the government has done with Intel. Uh you can give them loans at v very favorable terms. you can uh establish uh more prevalent education programs for people"
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to get involved in you know robot related trade uh or manufacturing related trade and I think all of these are really important. I I would I would say we should be as aggressive as possible"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "because in terms of policy we are lagging a little bit behind. Uh but I think we're going to get there very soon. What do you think the US government can do to encourage more uh success in the human robot space?"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I think they should just be directly investing in some of these robotics companies. I mean, the reason why we started Robo Strategy was because we felt like one, there was a need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "invest billions of dollars of capital into the most important robotics companies of the future. And two, there was an opportunity to do so as well. And the thing is, we've never had companies"
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or venture capital firms with the experience to do this. And so, it's a completely new underwriting game for them. They have to step out of their comfort zone. They have to get comfortable with all the execution risk,"
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "with all the dilution risk of potential, you know, future capex buildouts. And it's it's something that if the US government doesn't step in, it could take an elongated amount of time for the"
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "de for the industry to develop as as fast as it should."
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Let's talk about uh general purpose versus specialized uh kind of applications. And in my opinion, if we look at software AI, we're seeing this play out now, right? There are the"
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "general purpose models, the large language uh labs. They are spending immense amount of resources to go and really have one model that can do a lot of different things. I don't think"
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "there's anybody in the world who is denying that they are having success."
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> At the same time, there are very smart, very capable, very wellunded people who are saying, well, we actually think that there's a huge opportunity for specialized workflows using AI."
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> My general take on the software side is that both are going to have a place and both will be successful depending on what the end use case is."
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "When I look at the robotics space, I'm nowhere near as uh uh kind of down the rabbit hole as you are, but I know of companies like physical intelligence, which maybe is a little bit more"
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "specialized application compared to a figure oric or a 1x that are much more focused on, you know, kind of general application."
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> One or the other wins, they both will be successful. How do you look at general versus specialized?"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I I think this is a dynamic that has played out in a lot of different areas of history, right? If we look at our phone, we talked about this earlier, they replace your GPS, your MP3 player,"
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "uh you know, your recording devices, etc. Um, but those devices still exist to some extent, right? You know, the watch industry is still a thing even though you can tell time on your phone."
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh, and another parallel I like to look at is the the GPU versus the ASIC industry. Both both are massive. Both, I would say, are in the trillions of dollars. But I I think some people they kind of go to"
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this um line of thinking where they believe that in a perfect world everything should be specialized for a specific purpose and I I don't think that's the case and you you can look at"
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these previous examples to kind of um you come come to that similar understanding right but the the the thing with having something general purpose is that while it might not be the most efficient from, you know, what"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "one certain metric. It is something that needs to be made at an incredible scale."
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so you you have these massive uh unit economics that are working in in your favor that you wouldn't have for something that you're producing for one specific application, right? And that"
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "means I can produce something maybe at 80% cheaper cost than I would otherwise."
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And that is something that I think is really underappreciated. Um I I think there will still be specialized robots. I think we'll have specialized robots for welding, for example. We invested in in path"
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "robotics. Uh there are going to be specialized robots for you know home construction in different areas. And so there's there's an area for for both of these and I think they're both going to"
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "be humongous markets that you know we're going to play. And I think it it really depends on the context which robot makes sense. Let's talk about the training data that goes into actually creating"
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "these. Um, I think a lot of folks have seen some of the demo videos where a human is doing something and then the humanoid is essentially mirroring that action. Um, we've also seen there's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "startup here in New York City that now is offering to come and clean your home for free. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> But they want to wear cameras and basically collect all of that training data while they're cleaning your home."
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So, you get a free home cleaning, they get the data, they'll then use that. How do you look at the training data and where this is going to come from? Is is it possible to go back to the last"
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "question because I think there's a >> good >> there there's an important point which is the the world is never static which is why general purpose devices are so useful like GPUs right algorithms change"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "all the time AS6 you have to develop a completely new ASIC for it but the GPU is still going to be useful and the same thing is with anything that involves human labor if I'm working in a factory"
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I might have to produce a completely a different type of product next year, right? And that involves a different manufacturing process and sometimes I can use the same machines. But the"
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "reason why humans are still used in factory environments today, even though a lot of the labor is repetitive, is that humans can adjust for different workflows and the world's always going"
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to be changing, right? We're always going to have different environments, different objects that we have to interact with and different situations."
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so you you need something that that is maximally adaptable and you know that looks like a humanoid or maybe something that is similar to a humanoid. Maybe it's stationary. Maybe it's just a fixed"
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "general purpose arm, a cobbot industrial arm or a wheeled humanoid, right? But something that is flexible and can do multiple different tasks. Hello everyone. Sorry to interrupt this"
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
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    "i": 206,
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  {
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  {
    "i": 209,
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  {
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  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Now when you look at the training data um let's talk about where that comes from right we've obviously seen examples where humans are standing in front of a humanoid they do some task the humanoid"
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "then mirrors it um we also have seen though there's a recent company in New York City that now is offering to come clean your apartment for free >> but in exchange for you getting a free"
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "apartment cleaning they wear cameras and they collect live data and then they basically are using that for training data >> is this just going to become like a global scavenger hunt for whoever can"
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "find the best training data or do you think that there will be more specific we are trying to create data for these humanoids? Yeah, I mean this data topic is is really interesting because there"
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "used to be this kind of whole train of thought where people were comparing it to LM right and LM were trained on this corpus of internet um the entire corpus of internet history um and people right"
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "made the comparison that hey like we don't have this equivalent for robotics and we have to recreate all of that from scratch and it's going to take a lot of time it's going to take a lot of labor"
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And I I think some recent de development developments in the model world have changed my thinking on this one is the models that have basically um started to use video generation models as a"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "backbone like sometimes also called world models and these models are basically just trained on internet video data for the most part right uh think about you know Sora or uh Juan for"
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "example It's the one of the best Chinese open- source video models. Um, while these aren't the same type of data you would get from, you know, someone putting a camera on your head and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "cleaning your room, this is also really important data to train a model that has an understanding of of the world, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And has an understanding of physics, has an understanding of, you know, fluid dynamics. So, if I tip this glass over, right, like how does the water move and how objects interact with each other and"
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we we have a lot of that data on the internet and that has sh been shown to be really really useful as a as a backbone for robot foundation models."
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And so that doesn't mean necessarily that that's the only data that we need and we don't need anything else. We still need a lot of robot environment specific data. We need, I would say,"
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "data that doesn't exist on the internet of people doing certain tasks or in certain environments that are not usually recorded, right? So, if I'm uh producing some like a book in a"
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "factory, uh there's not really much video of that on the internet. And so, some of that data is going to be needed is is going to need to be collected. I think there's a question around what is"
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the scale that needs to be collected. I think it's it's hard to say, but it it's a lot less I think than what previous people would have previously thought."
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Now, when I think of these humanoid robots, it seems like there's already uh somewhat of a Trojan horse into many large companies. Right? If I look at a Tesla car being built, they don't look"
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like humanoid robots, but it is pretty much a robotic uh assembly line, and that's how those cars get created. If I look at Amazon, Amazon has about 1.5 million humans that they employ, but"
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "they report that they have 750,000 robots at the company. And my guess is that there's going to be more robots than humans at some point in the future."
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> The videos that I've seen online, I don't see any humanoid robots walking around yet."
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I see a lot of robots that are autonomously moving things within their different warehouses and and doing different tasks. But then if we go to like self-driving cars, again, it seems"
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like there's a rise of what I would consider a version of a robot, >> not a humanoid robot. And so, is this a thing where robots end up being kind of the the Trojan horse? It pushes through,"
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "people start to adopt this technology, and then actually humanoids are the last but biggest market, or how do you see the relationship between, you know, nonhumanoid robots versus the actual"
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "humanoids themselves? I I think look um designing a robot to do a specific task is I think one specific task is going to be a lot easier than u training a robot to do 50 different tasks and the"
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "humanoid robot you would expect to be able to do a lot of different tasks to kind of fulfill its its kind of desired purpose and so from that perspective yes I think you're going to see some more"
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "adoption of these um application specific robots a little bit earlier than for humanoids, but I I think the development of humanoids is it's it's it's exponential. Um, >> will humanoids be making other"
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "humanoids? And so, it like legitimately is exponential."
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> That is happening in the very near future. I think multiple companies have hinted at that before. You know, Tesla has hinted at that before. I think they've shown some videos of Optimus"
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "organizing, uh, you know, battery pieces within their facility. Uh, you know, figures hinted at it before. Uh, Electronic has talked about that before with their partnership with with Jable."
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, and so that's going to be part of it, right? It's the kind of like the the recursiveness of it is you with AI or with LMS, right? You have the the AIs being able to help with AI research and"
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "here you have the robots able to help with robot development and then you also have right the latest models opus 4.8 being able to help with robot AI training as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Let's talk about these humanoids in someone's everyday life. You know, one of the things that I continue to say is I personally believe >> humanoids are going to be cleaning in your home."
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> They're going to walk your dog. They may even watch your children one day. You know, I I have young children. Uh finding a babysitter sometimes is hard, right? Um maybe I wouldn't be"
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "comfortable if they were awake, but if they're asleep or something, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Like, but just talk about like what do you expect the average person in, I don't know, 10 years, their interaction with these to be, and how much are we going to trust them to replace tasks"
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that maybe today we would only allow another human to do?"
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I mean this this kind of goes back to also some of the debate around teleop right somebody controlling a robot from say you know a remote place versus fully autonomous >> for those that don't know tea operation"
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "is essentially there is the true autonomy where the robot has computational power on it uh actual device it's moving throughout the world there's nobody who can externally control it or or tell it to do certain"
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "things operation is the exact opposite right it's almost like a remote controlled robot that somebody else is controlling >> right right maybe somebody has, you know, an exoskeleton of of a humanoid"
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and they're moving around in, you know, some remote work center and then they're controlling the robot and there are that is happening in some use cases as a way for people to kind of bootstrap adoption"
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or gather training data. Um, and the the issue with that having that in your home though, right, is you have somebody that can see and hear everything that's going on. You kind of lose your your personal space. And so"
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm a little bit skeptical of that approach for the home first, >> the teleoperation, >> the tele operation approach for the home, which there are some companies um that are kind of leaning on it a little"
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "bit more. Um but for when these things become autonomous, I think it's going to be similar to, you know, how people interact with uh these chat these chat AI apps today with chat GBT and Claude,"
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "it's right like a lot of people tell them their personal information, some things they wouldn't even tell their significant friends. And so I think people will eventually have that type of"
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "relationship with their robots as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I do think it's interesting for like a child to grow up uh in a home where there's a robot that they depend on for certain things. You know, it does enter this world where what is the"
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "relationship between man and machine uh starts to get blurred a little bit more than uh than not. And I I know because I have friends who will tell me that their kids sit and talk to the Alexa."
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Mhm. and just talk, you know, talk and Alexa will answer and it's kind of, you know, a proxy for a human and maybe it's not the, you know, most intelligent conversation or uh something where the"
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the Alexa is actually able to replace the human conversation, but for a young child, you know, it does what it needs to do. And so you could easily see humanoid doing the same thing in, you"
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know, kind of the physical realm, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. And in some way, maybe they do it better than a human, right? Because, you know, they're trained to be to, you know, be very engaging, right? to uh understand us and to say things that we"
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "enjoy hearing. So yeah, >> now let's talk a little bit in terms of uh these companies. We obviously have talked about uh figure AI. I think that's probably the largest private company. Many people have probably heard"
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "of the company if if they don't uh already know it uh to some degree of familiarity. Uh Tesla is another company. They're in the public market."
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uh they have both the self-driving cars and they have uh the humanoid robots that they're going after. My external view seems that really what they are trying to do is build these AI models,"
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "machine learning, and just help robots see or think. And whether that's a self-driving car or the humanoid robot, that is kind of the pitch of that business. What do you think about Tesla"
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and do you think that they can win the market? I >> I think undoubtedly Tesla is going to be a big winner in humanoids. I mean, I would never bet against Elon. I just think he just he's a winner. Um, at the"
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "same time, um, you know, you look at the Optimus program. Um, I think they have hit a few speed bumps over the past one or two years. Uh, things aren't going as fast as expected, but you know that this"
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is a really hard problem to solve. Um, and I I would say on the AI side, um, they haven't shown as much as some of the other companies. I think they'll be able to get there because Elon is going to be"
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "able to do it. But for example, for figure, right, they showed this demo of the robot sorting packages for what was it? At first, it was eight hours and then they extended it to multiple robots"
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to work something like nine days straight. Mhm."
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Um that is, I would say, a really impressive feat of their autonomous capabilities that very few other companies have shown. Um and knowing Elon, if he's got something great to show, I"
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think he he'd show it, right? And so I think because we haven't seen that yet, maybe they're not there yet. Um on the other hand, no one's going to beat him in manufacturing um in America. And on"
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the hardware design side, I I think the like taste and style is going to be really important outside of, you know, your functional requirements. And he's going to be able to sell a premium"
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "product based on that. And um, you know, there are some, I think, issues with the hand. Not issues, but I would say need for redesign, right? The hand is super complex, one of the most complex parts"
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of the robot. And you need to make sure that even though you have a lot of really small components that they can withstand wear and tear for years and years and years and that they can be"
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "very precise because everything you're doing with their hand is very very precise. And so, you know, I think they're still going through design to to really perfect that. Um whereas maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "some companies are a little bit ahead, some are a little bit behind. But that's kind of how I would characterize Tesla at the moment. What's interesting to me is I've always talked about humans have"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "an advantage over the robots for now, which is these five fingers. You know, it is the one thing that every single company I've talked with that are building these humanoid robots, it's the"
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "hardest part in many of their view. And to a human, it's natural. You know, you just pick something up, you don't even think about it. And so, what at what point do you think that humans should"
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "start to worry about maybe the negative impact of this? Do you think there's a negative impact on jobs or the roles that humans will do in the employment sense?"
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I think some tech CEOs might sugarcoat this a little bit and you know they might relate it back to the history, right? This is what we kind kind of constantly hear as a"
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "talking point that hey look, every time in human history where we had this big technological revolution that put people out of jobs, there was always something new that kind of came about, right? I"
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think the difference here is that previously you just had to move up the cognitive stack. You had to do something that involved more thinking or more planning that you know whatever had replaced you"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "wasn't able to do. And now with AI basically replacing the complete cognitive ability and physical ability of a of a human there there's no place to kind of expand out to. Right? I don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think there's going to be a certain task that you can say, hey, look, um, a human can do this, but a robot won't be able to do. And I I think from that point of view, we need something like universal"
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "basic income. Uh, I think there's going to be a lot of people out of jobs, which is unfortunate, but there's also nothing we can do to stop technology. And so, we we're going to need safety nets from"
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "governments around the world to deal with this. And is your thought process that if humans are going to get displaced by humanoid robots that UBI or something like that is the solution?"
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> It's hard to say what's the optimal solution, but it's one of the best solutions I think that um people have come up with so far."
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Do you think that it is more likely software AI or hardware AI replaces human workers?"
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Well, I think you look at the makeup of um you know, white collar work versus blue collar work, right? It's, you know, for people like you and me, maybe we're in in these in these bubbles and we"
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "think, okay, it's it's mostly white collar jobs, but there's this huge swath in group of people that are doing more physical labor jobs. Um, I would say that's that's that's probably bigger"
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "than white collar jobs. Um, especially in other parts of the world. Um, and so I I think it's it's going to be huge for both. It's it's you know, I don't think it's important to say which one's"
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "going to be bigger. just going to destroy a lot of jobs."
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> What I find very interesting is uh we're seeing on the software side people are starting to now write maybe their technical documentation and have it optimized so that AI agents can read it"
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "not just humans or you see other aspects where people are actually building whether it's their products or you know checkout flows or or whatever so that agents are able to interface with it"
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "easily."
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> In the physical world we do not yet see people changing anything because of humanoid robots. My guess is that that will actually happen though. And so if we think of a factory right now, it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "pretty much there's a human factory and then there's some that have robotics."
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Do humans and robots work together? Do we get like a human, you know, facility and then there's an entirely different robotic facility? How do you think about the physical world really conforming and"
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "changing and evolving because of the rise of human robots?"
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So I I mean we've had robots working alongside humans for decades. Um some of them you might not really think about as robots cuz you're so used to them, right? Like coffee machines for"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "example. Um other ones that look a little bit more like robots."
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um they're essentially right called cobots. They're just large industrial arms that are a little bit smaller and they're programmed in a way that is safe to work around humans. And that has"
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "existed for I would say 20 years or so."
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and these exist across a lot of factories in the world. But the issue is that that the adoption hasn't been high right because um yeah I mean if you look at just all the amount of robots that are installed"
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "on an annual basis right now it's around 500,000 globally. Um a big chunk of that is is in China. um and a very small fraction of that is is in America even though we still do have a lot of you"
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know factories and places where people are doing physical labor in in America."
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It's just the issue with programming a robot um creating the environment around it and making sure that it's working reliably right you know around the clock for the entire year is really really"
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "expensive. Oftent times it's more expensive than the cost of the of the robot itself. But when we make these robots smart, right, that cost of deployment goes down dramatically and"
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these robots become a lot more economical and they make a lot more sense and a lot of different places in the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Let's talk about what you're doing in the space. We talked earlier, you've made some very large personal investments, but uh you recently announced that now you are uh taking those personal investments, you're"
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "contributing them into a closedin, publicly traded fund uh called Robo Strategy. talk a little bit as to why step out of the shadows to some degree uh and go down this path of operating uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this entity."
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I just want to clear up that I've contributed some of of my investments in robotics. I think it's something around 15 to 20% of my figure AI exposure and um you know some fraction of my"
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "electronic exposure but my exposure outside of the fund is is currently more than the exposure from the NAV basis inside the fund. Um, but I don't hope that to be the case, right? I hope I"
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "grow this as big as I can. Um and one of the reasons why you know I went down this path you know I could have continued to just invest privately was because when I went down this journey in"
  },
  {
    "i": 323,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the beginning you know 2 or 3 years ago I saw that the venture space just wasn't appreciating the industry and that there was not only going to be a really big need for more capital allocators to step"
  },
  {
    "i": 324,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "in um but it was an opportunity to do it at really big scale and so you saw What happened with OpenAI and Enthropic, right, is these companies just went completely nuts over the period of a few"
  },
  {
    "i": 325,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "years. And I think you're going to have that same vertical takeoff happen for robotics as well. You're going to be able to put tens of billions of dollars to work in a very high risk adjusted"
  },
  {
    "i": 326,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "manner, right? If you had just put all your money into the top few AI companies a few years ago, you would have outperformed the best seed funds in the world. Um and so this is a very I think special"
  },
  {
    "i": 327,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "opportunity in time and you know we're going to have the figure or we're going to have the anthropic and the open AI for robotics as well. Um and I think the only way to be able to reach"
  },
  {
    "i": 328,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that scale is to do it through the public capital markets. Um you know we had never raised um capital in the private markets before for you know an actively managed fund. you know, we've"
  },
  {
    "i": 329,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "kind of kicked the idea around a little bit, but and you know, like maybe after some effort, we could get, you know, one or two billion dollars, maybe a little bit more if we tried really hard. Um but"
  },
  {
    "i": 330,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I I think the opportunity in in the public markets is I would say in terms of demand for robotics exposure, high quality robotics exposure, it's probably on the scale right now of tens of"
  },
  {
    "i": 331,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "billions, very soon hundreds of billions in in the future, trillions, right? And there's no place for all that capital to get exposure. And so, you know, we over the past few years have been talking"
  },
  {
    "i": 332,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "about our views on markets, our views on, you know, this industry. And we were bombarded with people that were asking us, how do we get exposure to the space?"
  },
  {
    "i": 333,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "What stocks and what companies should we be looking at? And there was no answer except for Tesla. And so we thought, why not create this vehicle, right, for not only for people to get exposure, but for"
  },
  {
    "i": 334,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "us to be able to scale this into what I would consider potentially, you know, one of the biggest investors, robotics investors in the world, but also potentially one of the biggest VC funds"
  },
  {
    "i": 335,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "in the world, right? VC funds have traditionally not been public. There was a very brief history of them being public in, I would say, like the 1960s."
  },
  {
    "i": 336,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh there were some issues with it, but then for the most part it just went all private. And then you had these companies, right, that before they went public at a few billion dollars. Now"
  },
  {
    "i": 337,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they wait until they're trillion dollar plus tens of billions of dollars in revenue to go public. And all that value creation right is is going to in the hands of a few venture capital funds"
  },
  {
    "i": 338,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "their LPs and you know their network which is really smart small part of the world but there's right the public capital markets which is much much bigger and it it has interest right it wants to participate"
  },
  {
    "i": 339,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "in in this value creation and ride along in an investment journey and so why not take a investment fund public and so I think this model."
  },
  {
    "i": 340,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "If we're able to execute on it correctly, we we could kind of reshape the whole paradigm of venture capital investing as well. I think you're going to see other venture funds start to go"
  },
  {
    "i": 341,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "public. There are a few funds that went public earlier this year. Um but I think and they they've done well in terms of demand, right? They're all trading at premiums to NAV. uh the the difference"
  },
  {
    "i": 342,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is I don't think a lot of them have really zoned in and figured out this model of how do I take that demand and put it back into the vehicle in a way that's accretive for shareholders and to"
  },
  {
    "i": 343,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "compound that over time and then rein continue to reinvest in in the best companies in the world and do it on an active basis right because if I want to put billions of dollars to work I need"
  },
  {
    "i": 344,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to have the relationship with the founder I need to have underwritten the deal that I'm comfortable putting that amount of capital to work. Uh I need to have um you know been with this company"
  },
  {
    "i": 345,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and following it for for many many years already. Uh and you know I want to I I also need to be somebody that these founders want on on the cap table as well. uh not just me, you know, the"
  },
  {
    "i": 346,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "entire team that we've built at Robo Strategy and and so that is something that we're doing a little bit differently from uh some of the other publicly traded venture funds that that"
  },
  {
    "i": 347,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have launched and you know you might see some people try to copy in the future."
  },
  {
    "i": 348,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Now let's talk about um as you have this vehicle uh let's go to the maybe atomic unit the most important thing which is the decisions that you are making. Which company are you allocating to? Um what I"
  },
  {
    "i": 349,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "find very interesting about your team is you obviously are a great investor."
  },
  {
    "i": 350,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You've got a track record over time of investing in some of these innovative type uh industries. Um but you've assembled I don't know one of the top robotics teams in the world in order to"
  },
  {
    "i": 351,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "actually go underwrite this stuff. Talk a little about the team and what you guys do from a diligence standpoint when you guys are actually evaluating whether you're going to invest in a company or"
  },
  {
    "i": 352,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "not."
  },
  {
    "i": 353,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Um, so look, to I think make the best investment decisions in robotics, you you need experience and I I can try to get as smart on the industry, you know, as I as I can. And I think I've"
  },
  {
    "i": 354,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "done a pretty decent job at it. Um, you know, reading, you know, multitudes of of research papers, talking to people across the industry obsessively for the past two years. Um, but it doesn't replace"
  },
  {
    "i": 355,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "decades of real industry experience, which is something that I think other venture capital funds, they might have in their specific domains, but I don't I haven't really talked to anybody else"
  },
  {
    "i": 356,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that has that in in the robotic space so far. Uh, and they need to understand what are the pitfalls, right, that these companies can go through. What are uh, you know, some key areas that they need"
  },
  {
    "i": 357,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to operate uh, to be successful? uh and uh you know who who who is the right talent? Like are these people that they've brought onto the team actually legitimate? Are they going to contribute"
  },
  {
    "i": 358,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to this company being a big success? And so you know I without understanding I I went out and I you know I found Scott Walter uh who is incribable talent. He's a little bit of a mini celebrity in the"
  },
  {
    "i": 359,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "robotic space. Um, with the content that he posts on ex in and YouTube and lot almost every major humanoid CEO knows knows Scott uh has a lot of respect and some of his the content that he posts"
  },
  {
    "i": 360,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "online has even informed some of the mechanical designs of um some of the top players in the space and you know he he founded two robotics companies. He sold the last one to Cuka. He sold both of"
  },
  {
    "i": 361,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "them. the last one he sold the Kukah and uh you know 40 years experience is more than you know some people have their on their entire team. Um his his background is in uh what is it robot offline"
  },
  {
    "i": 362,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "programming uh human mechanical humanoid mechanical design um manufacturing simulation. So these are all incredibly tangential you know fields of expertise."
  },
  {
    "i": 363,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also have Jack Pearson on the team who you know was also a founder operator himself with a decade of experience in the indream and both of them have this kind of unique combination of both"
  },
  {
    "i": 364,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "technical and commercial competency and founders find that really useful as well and you know we we're we're trying to structure the platform in a way that we provide we we believe we can provide"
  },
  {
    "i": 365,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "value to the founders that we work with as well and so that is something that we're going to continue to do. We're going to continue to recruit more robotics veterans so they can help with"
  },
  {
    "i": 366,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you know supply chain with design of their robots for recruiting validating the right people uh etc."
  },
  {
    "i": 367,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Now let's talk about the actual entity itself. Um a lot of people don't know this but uh closed end publicly traded funds have some pros and cons I think compared to other vehicles. Um and so"
  },
  {
    "i": 368,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "one of the examples I've always used is Bill Aman. He has a closed end publicly traded fund in Europe >> and most people see he you know he managed $18 billion but majority of the capital is actually in the closed end"
  },
  {
    "i": 369,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "publicly traded fund >> now in the United States you cannot charge carry y >> whereas with a traditional private venture capital fund you know if you were just a a regular VC you would say"
  },
  {
    "i": 370,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "hey I'm charging you know 2 and 20% 2% management fee 20% carry an LP gives you the money you go and you invest and when you sell positions you're taking 20% of the profits. Yep, >> it's a pretty big number, right? Um,"
  },
  {
    "i": 371,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> in the publicly traded closed end funds, you can only charge a management fee and so there is no carry there, but it's also permanent capital and so I think it changes the incentives. It changes the"
  },
  {
    "i": 372,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "way that people think in terms of time horizon."
  },
  {
    "i": 373,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Talk just a little bit as to why you chose the actual closed end publicly traded fund versus maybe doing this in some other format."
  },
  {
    "i": 374,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I mean, there are only a few other formats that would work, right? One is we raise capital privately. that wouldn't get us to the scale that you know we we we want to get at. Um there"
  },
  {
    "i": 375,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is and that would I think just almost be just as hard. Uh whereas you know kind of like our competencies actually come a lot from from marketing. uh all of our team members have their own I would say"
  },
  {
    "i": 376,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you know large or at least have a meaningful presence on on social media and kind of understand how to generate more attention and awareness which is really important for a close-end fund"
  },
  {
    "i": 377,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "structure because you're attracting capital from the public capital markets uh and then the other option right is is an ETF but with the ETF now you can actually have private assets in ETF but"
  },
  {
    "i": 378,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I think they restricted to around 15%."
  },
  {
    "i": 379,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Right? And so we're dealing with illquid securities right and so the only way it really works is in this clos fund structure >> now what we've seen happen with many of these closedend funds is when you put"
  },
  {
    "i": 380,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "private investments that are good highquality assets people want access right if you think about uh in the early days of Bitcoin people wanted to buy Bitcoin in the public market they"
  },
  {
    "i": 381,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "couldn't do that and so the Bitcoin trust >> traded at a premium this is a story as old as time um talk a little bit as to the premium of which you guys trade at today is sometimes three 400% above NAV."
  },
  {
    "i": 382,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "What does that allow you to do? What what is kind of the plan here?"
  },
  {
    "i": 383,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So I think a lot of people look at the premium and they get afraid, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 384,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Because there is a risk which is the premium could compress um and but at the same time the premium premium could expand. Um I think what's important for us is that there's this aspect of"
  },
  {
    "i": 385,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "premium crystallization which I think is not very well understood. Um which means that I can issue shares and I I I can do it in a way that is actually accreative to shareholders. And so for for example,"
  },
  {
    "i": 386,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "right, if I have, you know, $100 of robotics equity in my vehicle and it's trading at a 3x nav and I issue 10% new shares, right now my fund size goes to $130. I issue one new share and"
  },
  {
    "i": 387,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "so there's some dilution, but taking that into account on a per share basis, my per share value actually goes up 18%."
  },
  {
    "i": 388,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Right? So net of the share issuance, you're actually accreating value. And if you do this over and over and over, right, that can compound and that can build over time. And that's what we've"
  },
  {
    "i": 389,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "seen with um structures like Micro Strategy and Menoplanet where they did this at really large scale. I think Micro Strategy their NAV per share went from around $2 to $4 depending on how"
  },
  {
    "i": 390,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you account it to it's it's well the price is pretty volatile but around $150 uh dollar now per share. There's around maybe 30 of that that comes from referred equity and so some credit but"
  },
  {
    "i": 391,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or there's around like 120 left over that just purely comes from the the the premium crystallization compounded over and over and over again over time. And some people think they look at the"
  },
  {
    "i": 392,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "structure and they think oh no Michael Sailor he just levered up bought a bunch of Bitcoin it went up and that's where the value for Micro Strategy came from."
  },
  {
    "i": 393,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "If you look at their average Bitcoin acquisition cost, it's around 75,000."
  },
  {
    "i": 394,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> It's like right where we are."
  },
  {
    "i": 395,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I think it's actually now above where we are, right? Bitcoin is like what 71,000 today. And so they've actually lost money on their on their Bitcoin holdings. And so that is like that that"
  },
  {
    "i": 396,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "is negative to the to the nav per share but their nav per share is still much much higher from when they first started because of the accretive nature of share issuance at a multiple. Um, and this"
  },
  {
    "i": 397,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "type of structure is is actually people think it's foreign, but it's not very different than say the private to public company rollup model where you see companies like I don't know if you're"
  },
  {
    "i": 398,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "familiar with Transdime, right? Big aerospace supplier or Constellation Software, >> Waste Management, a bunch of these guys."
  },
  {
    "i": 399,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 400,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Right. like they they have a company where they have earnings that trade at maybe a 15 to 40x multiple and then they find private companies that trade maybe at say a 3 to 8x multiple. They"
  },
  {
    "i": 401,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "acquire them maybe with their own cash flow, maybe with equity issuance, maybe with debt, but that cash flow and that enterprise value, it's immediately rerated, right, to whatever the earnings"
  },
  {
    "i": 402,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "multiple is on the public market >> uh cash flows. And so and then they do this over and over and over. And so if you actually look at the growth of a company like Constellation Software over"
  },
  {
    "i": 403,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "time, only around 10 to 20% of that growth has come from the actual underlying business growth that's organic and the other 80 90% comes from basically M&A. It's them taking advantage of I would say not taking"
  },
  {
    "i": 404,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "advantage that's the wrong word but them selling assets getting cost of capital at public equity prices and then being able to acquire businesses assets at private market prices which are"
  },
  {
    "i": 405,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "different which I think is a little bit difficult for people to comprehend right because they think hey um you know this is the value of a company. This was like the last round price and this is what it should be"
  },
  {
    "i": 406,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "valued at. But value differs, right, depending on who are the set of market participants that are valuing that asset. And so one thing I like like to compare it to is like if you just took a"
  },
  {
    "i": 407,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "factory worker or a tech worker from China and put them in America, they have the same skills. They they'd be paid four times more, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 408,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "um if you know we took this building in Manhattan right now and we said hey look only people within a 10 mile radius are allowed to buy this the price would be much different than you know the price"
  },
  {
    "i": 409,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of say you let everybody in the world be a potential buyer for for for this asset and so I think that is some of the complication that people have to think about when they're thinking about public"
  },
  {
    "i": 410,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "versus private marks and what the premium means because with private valuations you're working with a very small constrained set of market participants with public markets is much much larger and often times there's"
  },
  {
    "i": 411,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "different valuations."
  },
  {
    "i": 412,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> If I was to describe someone what you're doing I think you know so a friend texted me I would basically say robo strategy is a publicly traded venture fund that's focused on investing in the"
  },
  {
    "i": 413,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "best humanoid companies and related private companies. M the idea is that it's permanent capital and they can continue to recycle this into the best businesses over time. When it trades at"
  },
  {
    "i": 414,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "a premium, they will then be able to take that premium, monetize it, raise more capital and deploy that back into the private markets and over time they should be able to compound capital by"
  },
  {
    "i": 415,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "specifically focusing on capital market strategy and humanoid robot industry. Is that like a fair way to describe this or would you change anything?"
  },
  {
    "i": 416,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I'd say it's relatively fair. only relatively we're we're focused on more than just humanoids, right? I mean, our north star is investment returns within the robot robotics space. And so that"
  },
  {
    "i": 417,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "includes other robotics companies that are not building humanoids. One example is standard bots, right? Uh another example is Dino Robotics with their portfolio. I mean, they're building both"
  },
  {
    "i": 418,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "hardware that look like yield humanoids and they're also really um they're one of the best researchers that that are building the robot brain. Um, and so and and there's all this stuff within the"
  },
  {
    "i": 419,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "supply chain as well. I I think most of the value is going to acrew to the end of the supply chain, but there are definitely a lot of circumstances where there's going to be some big companies"
  },
  {
    "i": 420,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that are producing components. I mean, if you look at actuators, for example, right, they make up around 30 to 50% of the bomb cost of of a humanoid. And that space really hasn't significantly"
  },
  {
    "i": 421,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "evolved for 50 years. So, there's a lot of area for innovation in certain areas."
  },
  {
    "i": 422,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And you know we're keenly looking at pretty much everything that is tangential to the space to understand where we can make the best investments."
  },
  {
    "i": 423,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Uh you mentioned standard bots. What do they do?"
  },
  {
    "i": 424,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> So they make they make cobots. They make industrial arms. They're also building you know a semi-w wheeled humanoid right now. Uh I would say they're really the premier and only reasonably sized"
  },
  {
    "i": 425,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "industrial arm manufacturer in America."
  },
  {
    "i": 426,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And that is incredibly important if we think it's a big priority for America to re-industrialize, right? And so Evan is actually around New York. Um they have what I would say one of the most"
  },
  {
    "i": 427,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "freshest takes on developing um robot arm technology because you know there's a lot of robot arms have been around for a long time, right? uh you know you have Fenuk uh you have Yasawa you have all"
  },
  {
    "i": 428,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these big robot arm guys but I would say they're stuck in this old school of traditional robot programming which looks very different from AI native robots of the future right and so some"
  },
  {
    "i": 429,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of the hardware needs a little bit look different uh maybe you need to have more torque sensing ability um maybe um you know uh you're you're you you have the programming interface not be so"
  },
  {
    "i": 430,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I guess complicated and it could be as simple as say I talk to the robot I tell it what what I wanted to do and it's able to do it um and and and so you know standard bots I I think that is"
  },
  {
    "i": 431,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "going to be an an incredible company um should have them on >> let's talk about uh electronic um I've talked with the team there before I think it's one of the larger holdings uh in uh the fund that you have what is"
  },
  {
    "i": 432,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "maybe their differentiator why are you excited about that Yeah, I mean if you look at Appronic, it's one of the longest standing uh humanoid companies out there. They're OGs. They've been at this for, you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 433,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "9 plus years. Um and a lot of the more innovative actuator technology came from, you know, some of the researchers that were part of the founding team or currently work at Aptronic. um they"
  },
  {
    "i": 434,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actually were um contracted to create some of the prototypes for some of the leading uh humanoid companies that everyone knows about today. And uh you know then they decided hey look this is"
  },
  {
    "i": 435,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "going to be such a great opportunity. we have all this experience, why don't we just build the humanoid and commercialize it it ourselves and and and so if you look at their death of experience"
  },
  {
    "i": 436,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "then also you know the CEO leadership I think Jeff just recently hired uh the previous uh CPO of Whimo uh some top executives from um what was it Amazon and and some other big places and"
  },
  {
    "i": 437,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we talked about this before, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 438,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Manufacturing and hardware are some of the two kind of competencies that we evaluate. And there are few other robotics companies even, you know, after we've invested in these companies 2"
  },
  {
    "i": 439,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "years later that have come out and have, I think, been able to give the impression that they'll be able to actually commercialize millions of robots that actually work, right? that"
  },
  {
    "i": 440,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're not going to break after uh 6 hours of of work that they're going to be able to carry what they say they're supposed to be able to carry. Um and you know they also have a partnership with"
  },
  {
    "i": 441,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Google Deep Mind which I think is really special right cuz you know building the robot brain is going to be incredible tough incredibly tough and deep mind is um they have one of the deepest"
  },
  {
    "i": 442,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "experience experiences in robot learning out of you know any any company out there. Let's talk about some of the misconceptions maybe are the critiques of uh of what you guys are doing. Um you"
  },
  {
    "i": 443,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know, if I was to play devil's advocate, uh one of the things I've seen people talk about online is like, uh you're just using the public as exit liquidity."
  },
  {
    "i": 444,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "You're taking some of your shares, you're putting it into this fund, uh you're hoping that they bid it up, and then you're just going to sell out of it, and you know, we're the dummies if"
  },
  {
    "i": 445,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we go and we buy this."
  },
  {
    "i": 446,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I think it's just a very short-term minded um view set. I mean to do what we did in terms of um you know building building the team that we have and building the relationships with with the"
  },
  {
    "i": 447,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "founders and just getting really smart on the space I mean it was an incredible amount of work and to make you know a few hundred million to take a company and then immediately sell your shares. I"
  },
  {
    "i": 448,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "mean, there's a lot easier ways to make a few hundred million dollars, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 449,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And um the opportunity that we're looking at here is is is to potentially create one of the largest venture capital funds in the world, right? And to reshape how venture operates as a"
  },
  {
    "i": 450,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "whole. Like that that's what we're trying to do. Um and so that criticism, it just Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's hard to understand. I mean, there are so many ways that you you you can do it,"
  },
  {
    "i": 451,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "right? could put your shares under like a different entity that is not associated with with your name at all."
  },
  {
    "i": 452,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um you could lock up all the other investors which you know we didn't do."
  },
  {
    "i": 453,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Everybody was basically you know completely unlocked on on the first day."
  },
  {
    "i": 454,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And the reason why we did it was because we saw all these other you know IPOs or companies projects going public and we saw what they did which is they locked up 90% of their shares right and what"
  },
  {
    "i": 455,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "happens is it artificially inflates the price because price is a function of the supply and demand."
  },
  {
    "i": 456,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Mhm. And but the issue is that supply has to come on the market someday, right? And it could be six months, it could be two years. And because people know that supply is going to increase by"
  },
  {
    "i": 457,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "10 times, they don't really want to buy. And when when people start unlocking, then they start selling. And then the share price kind of goes like this. And it's just impossible to kind of create any any"
  },
  {
    "i": 458,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "momentum at all. And it's you're never going to be able to get over this this fear of, you know, extra shares entering the market. And so what we did was like why don't we just do the opposite of"
  },
  {
    "i": 459,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that >> right like just rip off the band-aid on the first day unlock all the shares and you know I would say most of the shares are held with the team right like that that is public and you know you'll be"
  },
  {
    "i": 460,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "able to see if we move them or not there is maybe this you know this fraction of shares that are held with um private market investors and while we believe a lot of them are long-term aligned with"
  },
  {
    "i": 461,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "us maybe there are some that believe that the moment a company company goes public, that's the moment that you take profit and um and they're free to do so on the first day uh or or the first"
  },
  {
    "i": 462,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "week. But either way, that's that's out of the way if if if they've done that, right? And so that was something that we did very differently, I would say, from other companies, just kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 463,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "understanding from our understanding of the public capital markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 464,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> The last thing I've seen is uh what makes you think you're a good robot investor? What makes you think that you're good at that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 465,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Can I can I add a little bit something?"
  },
  {
    "i": 466,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah. I mean, I I just also want to add that I have no intention of selling my shares. I don't have any plans to."
  },
  {
    "i": 467,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Mhm."
  },
  {
    "i": 468,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Um, if we don't like a company within the portfolio, I mean, we we we do a lot of diligence. We do a lot of work to make sure that the investments that we make are are really sound, but if the"
  },
  {
    "i": 469,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "founder changes over, there's some, you know, board dispute or whatever, and there's a leadership change, and we're not on board with that, then we also have the ability to to sell our position"
  },
  {
    "i": 470,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 471,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Mhm. Um, hopefully we don't. Hopefully we just hold these companies forever."
  },
  {
    "i": 472,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And that's what our permanent capital model allows us to do, but we can always just change out exposure from one company to another one that we like better. Like I don't need to sell my"
  },
  {
    "i": 473,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "shares ever, right? Because of that and because I mean I want to invest in robotics. I I do it in the vehicle."
  },
  {
    "i": 474,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "That's it's it's a it's a beautiful structure."
  },
  {
    "i": 475,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Mhm. That uh that makes sense to me. Um, one other critique that I've seen is, uh, people say, \"Well, what do you know about investing in robotics?\" You know, what what makes me think that you're a"
  },
  {
    "i": 476,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "great investor?"
  },
  {
    "i": 477,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I mean, I think we're one of the few investors that have a track record of investing in robotics. Um, and this is outside the fund where, you know, we've generated uh mid nine figures of uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 478,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "unrealized returns. Um, and you know, have made those bets earlier than a lot of people were excited to make those bets. I think now it's becoming a little bit more excit acceptable and there's"
  },
  {
    "i": 479,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people getting excited about the industry. Um, but it's it's just pure obsession. You know, I'm here to win and to do it. It just means look, I I don't have a social life. Like I'm reading"
  },
  {
    "i": 480,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "robotics research papers, listening to like robotics research podcasts. Uh, shout out to Robo Papers. um and uh you know talking with different companies and founders and trying to understand"
  },
  {
    "i": 481,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the industry in as holistic of a way as possible and I'm we're bringing on team members that think similarly >> right uh you know they're not here for a paycheck they really care and they"
  },
  {
    "i": 482,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "understand the industry and we have a really high bar for for talent as well >> one of the things I find interesting is um you know when you buy a public stock you're hiring that management team to"
  },
  {
    "i": 483,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "take care of your capital. When you buy a closedend publicly traded fund, you're doing the same thing, right? And so in a weird way, uh people who allocate capital, uh they are hiring you and your"
  },
  {
    "i": 484,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "team to go find the best robotics deals and if they don't like what you're doing, they can always sell as well, right? It's kind of this weird dynamic that you don't get in the private"
  },
  {
    "i": 485,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "market. I'm an LP in plenty of funds. I allocate my money to them. I kind of get to choose what to do with my money when they give it back to me. And that might be 10, 12 years, right? Um in the public"
  },
  {
    "i": 486,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "market's a little bit different."
  },
  {
    "i": 487,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Mhm. Yeah. I mean that's the beauty of our structure is that it this is liquid and so you know that also might be a reason for you know any premium that we get as well right when assets are more"
  },
  {
    "i": 488,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "liquid they're more accessible to people have the option to trade in and out of them and there's there's value associated with that >> um and you know I hope people believe in our story and I hope they they want to"
  },
  {
    "i": 489,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "buy and and and hold and take a very long-term view on what we're doing because that's that's how we're operating."
  },
  {
    "i": 490,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Makes sense to me. Where where can we send people to find more about you or or find out more about Robo Strategy?"
  },
  {
    "i": 491,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> We have our X account um at Robo Strategy. Uh my my X account and uh our website and Edgar Filings as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 492,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> All right. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I think that you guys are really on to something interesting here. It's a massive market opportunity and I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 493,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that you have a very unique approach to it. I personally am a big fan of the closed end publicly traded funds and so I'm excited to see what you guys do in the next couple months."
  }
]