[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Is lit just a copycat beta trade to hype or is it actually something like differentiated in strategy and revenue and economics?"
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "As Hyperlid breaks a $60 billion market cap and is positioned to earn a top 10 spot in the crypto industry, investors are starting to realize how big the per market actually could be. When you see"
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Tradfi, Finn, Twitter commentators tweeting about Hyperlid and the Hyperlquid ETFs and DAS are pulling in tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of flows, it makes the entire per sector"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "more interesting and more exciting. But perhaps the number one reason to be excited about Per is that the world's largest capital market still hasn't given them regulatory approval. There's"
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "no one with a PERS license inside the United States because that license doesn't exist yet. So, while you may feel like you're late to the growth of offshore per, the onshore perp game"
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "hasn't even started yet. And this isn't just Coinbase, Kraken, or Robin Hood competing amongst themselves for US per market share. Pers are on their way to eat all of finance. So, you are welcome"
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to dream bigger dreams. The real prize are the big brokerages like IBKR or Charles Swab. And winning those as clients can result in tens of billions of dollars of flows in revenue going to"
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "whichever per platform gets regulatory approval and can execute quickly. The two guests on the show today think that Lighter, the ZKL2 on Ethereum, is in prime position to win an outsized share"
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of the United States market given the eventual regulatory clarity the the United States is going to provide to the per sector. But even outside of the domestic market, the lit token, the"
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "token of lighters is already buying back twice the rate of the token compared to Hyperlid and at just a $1 billion valuation compared to Hyperlid 60. All I want to ask the question is lit cheap?"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I'm here with Flip. He does research at Deli Digital. Flip. Welcome to Banklist."
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Thank you. Thanks for having me. And I'm also joined by Will Price, a DeFi investor and also an adviser to lighter and I think his first podcast in about four years. Will, welcome to Banklist."
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Also both of you guys's first time."
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Hi David. I know I tried to record a podcast with you like 5 years ago and we lost the audio very sadly. That's so right. I >> This is my first appearance on Banklist."
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Right. Right. Oh my god. It was about yams, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Oh my gosh. It was >> It was about yams. Yeah. We'll let the listener go investigate what Yams was."
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "If they don't know, they don't know, you don't know."
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Perfect."
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Uh, okay. Uh, guys, I have some questions about lighter. Uh, there has been a ton of attention on hyperlquid."
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The hyper business model is well established as working extremely well."
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh, Hyperlid is just getting known into trady circles, Wall Street circles, getting a lot of clout and brand. Uh, and there is a lesser known ZK layer 2 on Ethereum that is also doing well in"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "terms of per that I want to know just a little bit more of. And maybe to kind of just start off this question, this is a question that I hear asked on crypto Twitter and around. Is the uh token of"
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "lighter is lit. Is lit just a copycat beta trade to hype or is it actually something like differentiated in strategy and revenue and economics? Uh maybe Flip, I'll kind of just throw that"
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "one to you to answer to start."
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, and I think the the short answer there, that's a good question. The short answer is is yes, it's it's different."
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Um and I think the first and most obvious is is zero fees and and why does that matter? It really affects their distribution strategy and the way in which they onboard new users and sell to"
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "existing platforms. And to to expand on that a little bit is if like recently they integrated with Encilico and Encilico is also integrated with Hyperlid. Well, Hyperlquid has a base"
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "builder code fee of 4.5 and Encilico most OEMs order and execution management systems charge one bit to their users for those type of orders. And so the total cost for the user is 5.5 bips"
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "versus if you use lighter which has zero fees for their you know partner partner attribution program which is which is builder codes. I know the team would hate me saying that but it's essentially"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "their builder codes. There's zero fees."
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So in silicico can still charge one one bit but the trader you save 4.5 which matters a lot for people who trade volume. Um and so the way in which they go about their distribution strategy is"
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "is very different than than a hyperlquid. And this also goes into like the team's density. The engineering team, they they they have quite a quite a large engineering team. One of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "sharpest teams I've met in crypto and and the talent is very much so on par with a lot of the startups you see in AI now. And their their talent density on the engineering side allows them to have"
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "a white glove treatment to integrating different partners like integrating Telegram. eventually, you know, hopefully they integrate with with brokers, the IBKRS of the world is they"
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "have the talent density to go integrate this tech stack for IBKR where the competitors don't quite have the same resource to go do that and nor do they take that approach. It's usually here's"
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "our SDK. If you want to integrate it, please go for it."
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> So, what I'm hearing and and will maybe I can get you to clarify as well is is the it's cheaper. Lighter is cheaper than Hyperlid. It's not it's not just cheaper. there's actually just like zero"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "fees. But I think what you're alluding to, Flip, is that actually is like kind of a paradigm shift in the structure of the lighter strategy. It's not just that it's competitive on the fee market. It's"
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actually just a completely different strategy that is opened up based on being zero fees and that strategy is expressed or uh being pursued by this very competent engineering team that you"
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "alluded to. Is that correct?"
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So I guess zooming out for a second like yes that's a a difference in lighter's business model and go to market. Lighter also has some architectural differences like you said"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "David is a ZK rollup and who cares if it's a ZK rollup. Well there's a couple of things that that gets you. Number one is it gets you permissionless collateral which reduces the trust surface for for"
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "traders. You don't have to trust you know whoever the bridge operator is or or a multi-IG. Uh the other thing it gets you is you know exit rights. Um lighter has an escape hatch to the"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Ethereum L1 that can be uh you know triggered in in the event that lighter has a problem without any intervention from the team. And these are uh protections that people in general don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "really care about until they really really need them. Uh you know because they relate to to fail safes and decentralization. And so uh I would say that the people that care most about it"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "are institutions. But you still have to build a compelling product that is is better for the end user. And uh I think that is the intention behind the zero fee for takers business model. And and"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "so the monetization happens by charging market makers fees to trade with with uh retail users."
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Could we just expand on that a little bit more? So start from from like square zero or maybe square hyperlquid because that's the anchor that everyone kind of understands. That's the anchor that I"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "understand. What's hyperlquid's business model and then how is it differentiated with lighter?"
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, the business model for hyperlquid is trading fees, right? And it is for lighter too. It's it's just you know how much trading fees do you charge and who do you charge them to?"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> And then so okay, what's that answer for hyperlquid? How much are the trading fees and who does hyperlquid trade uh charge the trading fees to and then I think you alluded to lighter only"
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "charges it to market makers. What's the philosophy of the strategy around that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "That is uh a good point. And so so Hyperlquid, they they charge the makers, they charge the takers. Uh various C's, they have the traditional fear tiers, which you see most exchanges do. Uh NATO"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "has it um extended has it and a lot of the other competitors have this this tiered fear model uh for both for both makers and takers where where lighter says, \"Hey takers, we just want you to"
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "trade on the platform.\" And you know, this incentivizes and brings in usually retail flow. They're used to that zero fee model and so you see a lot of market market orders instead of limit orders"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and the trade size on lighter tends to be a little bit smaller >> indicative of retail users and this is quite advantageous for market makers because this is somewhat benign flow for"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "them. So they are willing to pay more in fees because they are more profitable per dollar traded against that type of flow versus a hyperlquid where you might be trading Jump might be trading against"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "um you know and one of the other market makers winter mu and that's not a very advantageous trade for them versus here it's like okay I I kind of know I'm trading against a lot of retail so I can"
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "be quite profitable on that and so in order to do that you you charge your fees to to the taker the retail user the front-end user and then market makers, you you pay a little bit and then their"
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "integration with Telegram has brought a lot of that retail flow in. Um, which probably gives lighter some pricing power. My speculation is I think over time you'll see fees increase for makers"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "over time on on lighter. Um, I think they have some pricing power there just because market makers are so profitable trading. It's this retail benign flow."
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I see. I see. Okay. So, it's worth highlighting to to listeners that like retail flows are the golden goose for any financial app. uh this is how uh Robin Hood has done so well. This is"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "also why why uh Koshi uh the domestic US Kelshi uh prediction market is actually very profitable because they have such strong retail flows. And so I think we just call it uninformed flows. Is retail"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just like smashing a market buy on a token they saw 3 seconds ago on Twitter is a really profitable way for market makers to make money. And I think what you're saying is like the the retail"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "traders are being given zero fees as a perk to come trade on lighter which attracts the market makers to come and you know clear the noise uh market make amongst all the uninformed flow and"
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that's that's the market makers profit margins and the only the market makers are charged and so the the theory is that this is a better bootstrapping mechanism of attract the uninformed"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "retail to attract the market makers and then the net effect of this is that you have this like feedback loop that grows and grows and grows. Is that the strategy?"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I think I think you're you're pretty much uh directionally accurate, David. Like of course there are big network effects to liquidity. And so if you want people to use your platform,"
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "then you need to provide them uh opportunities to trade for better execution cost or opportunities to trade with with certain people that they want to trade with. And so, you know, lighter"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "can do that with um some of their um you know, fee structure design and and you know, they can also solve the other end of the equation through onboarding uh as many people as possible on the demand"
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "side through distribution."
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I think it's also important to to realize there that I think a lot of people when they when they see zero fees, it's like, okay, if you're not paying fees, you're usually the thing"
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "being being sold. Uh I I think this is this is wrong in this context because as a retail user I generally speaking get better pricing because market makers want to trade against retail flows. So"
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they'll quote tighter and so spreads tend to be somewhat tighter and so as ret as a retail user I get better fills."
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "My total execution cost is cheaper than if I used another venue. and a market maker. I'm excited to quote tighter than I usually would elsewhere because I know it's profitable. And then the exchange,"
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they still make money because they're able to charge the the market maker. So like the three parties here, the retail, the market maker, and the exchange, they're all they're all happy here."
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "There's there's one side's not getting uh screwed in a way here. They're not getting the short stick, if you will."
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So I I don't think uh you know, screwed is is necessarily the way to look at it. But if if we're talking about screwed, one thing to note on lighter is that even though it's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "rollup, which is a blockchain, there isn't any me on lighter. And we can get into the the microsc structure details as to why if you like, David, >> uh and there is MEV on other platforms"
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like Hyperlquid or Aster or or maybe >> not necessarily. It's just different design decisions. I guess I'm thinking more about like a a blockchain like Ethereum with with a with an open mele"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "where where pending transactions can be seen, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Uh in the case of lighter, lighter has a centralized sequencer and so >> uh for example, bass also has one, >> right? And so transactions are processed in the order that in which they're"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "received. And and what's interesting about lighter's architecture is they can benefit from the latency advantages and speed up that's associated with running that sequencer in a centralized way and"
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uh at the same time still verify to Ethereum that all of the logic of the matching engine was run correctly. And this this is a uh function of fairness."
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Can we maybe we can talk about the importance of fairness uh when it comes to per exchanges because as I understand it traders are actually quite tuned to uh whether or not the platform that"
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're trading on is treating them fairly or not. Can we can we talk about that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, traders want the the best fill quality. That's a function of a couple of things. One of which is liquidity and another of which is you know any adverse selection if it exists. And so, uh, you"
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know, speaking of of adverse selection, one of the things that, uh, you might worry about if you trade on this opaque centralized exchange is is whether, uh, you know, somebody is is, uh, you know,"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "taking advantage of your flow. There are some pretty funny memes from last cycle around, uh, you know, browser lag on FTX just as one example. Uh and and in the case of lighter uh because the the"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "verification logic is open source uh you can see that you know the the uh the exchange rules have been attested to and guaranteed by math and so you don't actually have to trust a centralized operator even though right"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "now lighter has a centralized sequencer."
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh you're right, the centralized sequencer is like fully auditable and verifiable because of the nature of of a ZK rollup. Doesn't Hyperliquid also have some of these properties? Because"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Hyperlid is also a collection of nodes?"
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I know if we talk about like, you know, a truly decentralized system, maybe Hyperlid doesn't quite fit the bill of that, but nonetheless, it is it's not Binance or FTX. Uh and so >> yeah, I mean I would say Hyperliquid is"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "not decentralized on the level of of Ethereum, but it does have a validator set and that validator set coordinates to produce blocks which contain the traits. Uh it's it's a it's a different"
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trade-off space, >> right? But don't you get some of the same levels of transparency around uh for traders if they are uh being traded against uh with hyper?"
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Absolutely. Compared to something like like an FDX or or other centralized exchange. Absolutely."
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So, I think maybe some of the a reoccurring question I'll have as we go on in this episode is like, well, can't hyperlquid just do that? Like, if the strategy of lighter fees is to not"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "charge retail fees and instead charge market makers, and that's such a good strategy that we're bullish, why doesn't Hyperlid just do that? Yeah, that Hyperlid could do. It would cannibalize"
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "a lot of their revenues and and generally from the leader, you don't often see that sort of strategic positioning. Uh there are other things that that Hyperlid would have a hard time doing. Uh one of which is"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "approaching lighter's trade latency."
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Um another of which is uh uh you know providing the same guarantees around um you know execution and verifiability of of of collateral and and you know proper functioning of the liquidation engine"
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "and and the other things you get with the ZK."
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I think I would just add to like why why doesn't Hyperlid go zero fees? I think Will will kind of touched on is like why would you compress your own margins like you don't you don't need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "yet. you wait till the competitor does that. And I think you started to see some people get somewhat concerned about that pre-TG just because volumes were such a large percent of of per volumes"
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and now that's kind of faded and that's not less of a worry there. But I think you are starting to see some of the the fee compression in the space like look at HIPP3 uh growth mode like the"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "discount there. Like a lot of people will say that they believe HIPP3 growth mode will go away on a lot of these commodities and RWAS. I I disagree and I think this is just fee compression"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you're you're seeing across the board, but until until your hand is forced, like if you're Binance, if you're Hyperlquid, why would you compress your fees when you when you don't need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "yet? Um, and then like on the distribution side is like why why doesn't Hyperlid take a similar distribution strategy? Like they they don't they're not forced to yet. They don't need to. People come to them."
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "People go use their their stack. They go to the SDK. They implement it. Um, and so until other people start going elsewhere because they're getting a white glove treatment from a competitor,"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "there's no reason for them to go do that yet."
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Hyperlid is a great product. Um, you know, they they've gotten great distribution because their product is great and and they're um, you know, they've formed a cult of sorts around it"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "and, you know, I just happen to think that there are people that enjoy this other spot in trade-off space as well and that the exchange ultimate landscape will have many winners. And I think we see that with"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Coinbase and Binance and OKX uh Bybit, how could I forget Bybit in the centralized exchange uh venue space and I think we'll see similar in decentralized exchange space. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Okay. Okay. I'm starting to get my my mind wrapped around this conversation. I think the if we're bullish the lit token, which is like a question I kind of want to end this podcast with, uh is"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just like understanding the lit token. I think what you guys are saying is that uh there's going to be some competitor that forces market dynamics upon hyperlquid because it can't just be a"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "complete monopoly because if there's a monopoly you incentive a competitor potentially that competitor is lighter and lighter's uh way the way that it chooses to compete with Hyperlid is"
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "going to change the market dynamic of the space as a whole. One of the ways we've talked about this so far is the fee structure dynamic. Maybe the next one I want to talk about is lighter's"
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "distribution strategy for actually attracting the retail flows which are as we've established so incredibly valuable. So, so maybe uh will maybe I'll turn flip this one to you about how"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "would you define or illustrate what lighter's distribution strategy is."
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. So, I think I think lighter is is competing with like the entire uh exchange space, you know, not just the the crypto exchange space. And I I think all of the best crypto exchanges would"
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "would say the same. There's a much bigger pie out there and and Lighter's positioning itself to win."
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> So, you're talking about not not we're not just talking about like Lighter versus Hyperlid, but also Lighter versus Coinbase, Binance, but then also Robin Hood and uh Interactive Brokers, like"
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "stuff like that. So, there's there's there's a few different potential universes depending on how things shake out. I think Lighter can be a winner in in multiple of them. You know, one"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "potential future is that lighter becomes a globally popular exchange with a ton of first party distribution. Another possible future is that lighter uh achieves massive penetration on the"
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "infrastructure side even though it doesn't wind up getting uh to you know global scale distribution uh directly itself. And so I'm not sure exactly how things are going to play out, but um"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "what I do know is that it's a a very talented engineering team with with a good grasp on financial markets that that is, you know, laser focused on getting to a a outcome with scale."
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. It's just they're going after like growing net new users. So instead of going like specifically after teams and wallets that Hyperlid already has relationships with or doesn't have"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "relationships with, but they still leverage their their tech stack is is lighter is going after like Telegram wallet for instance I think is a great one. That's like net new users or net"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "new per users. Like some of these users probably haven't used per or maybe they have but like hey Telegram's usually where I I keep my assets like over in in uh Southeast Asia it's quite popular and"
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "so there you get users there that that's like net new per users growing the pie growing net distribution."
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah net new per users but inside of crypto still correct right we still haven't really penetrated outside of the crypto bubble. It's it's hard it's hard to know where where the you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Telegram wallet user base comes from. Um you know obviously Telegram is popular within the crypto community but it's also very popular outside the crypto community."
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yep. Interesting. Okay. So te and a telegram maybe we can just actually poke uh open up the hood and talk about how that works. I think I mean lighter in the background wallet in the front."
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Maybe it's as simple as that but also just like what else is in the distribution strategy from from lighter that that is like this. Yeah, that's that's pretty much how it works. There"
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "there are some nuances that that I would say are out of scope of this conversation. Uh but basically, you know, Lighter helped Telegram set up a bespoke solution that worked for them"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "and and their architecture that uses lighter on the back end. uh and uh I think we can call it a semi-custodial arrangement that uses decentralized rails and you know the the right"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "solution for each potential lighter partner is going to be different uh but you know can be supported you know as per their needs and and I I uh I know the lighter team is focused on you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "getting as many distribution part partners as possible because again that's one side of the chicken and egg problem of of getting liquidity network effects >> and this is maybe where this uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "apparently cracked engineering team comes in who are able to build these external externally facing products to integrate with things like Telegram or other venues that have users."
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> I mean they they have a lot of things to do. That's one of the places that they they contribute for sure."
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Okay. I think it's a it's a competitive edge as someone a third party here. I think it's a competitive edge that they do have. Uh the same talent density I haven't seen elsewhere among their"
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "competitors centralized or decentralized."
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Okay. the cracked engineering team."
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> The cracked engineering team."
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Uh can we talk about the technical edge that lighter has? Will you've talked about the latency dynamics uh that lighter has? What does that do for it when it comes to attracting flows and"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "therefore fees? And then what what are the other just like technical strengths that lighter has versus the rest of the market? So a a human starts to notice latency somewhere around the quarter"
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "second mark or or 250 milliseconds."
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Lighter's latency for taker orders is somewhere on the order of 20 milliseconds. So you know well under that threshold and uh you know that basically lets you provide an experience"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that is for all intents and purposes instant for your your traders."
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh lighter also on the architectural side has a speed bump for taker orders."
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So basically any any taker or market order is is going into a queue and it waits uh somewhere on the order of 140 to 300 milliseconds depending on your your staking tier and whatnot uh before"
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "it gets processed. But you know importantly the market makers don't know that those orders are pending but they can update where they quote in the book as fast as their connection to the API"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "permits. And so this leads to a market structure where uh you know if the quote unquote true price of an asset changes somewhere else like wherever the underlying is trading whether it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "NASDAQ or or Binance or or anywhere else uh market makers can update their quotes and and they can avoid getting what's called picked off by by what are called toxic traders. And so from an"
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "architectural standpoint with all the market makers that I've spoken to, they they really like this architecture and they consider it a very fair playing field. And so the the very very low"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "latency just is uh just like an assurance mechanism for market makers and who are very sensitive to these very low speeds and that's what just preserves the volume on the platform."
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah. So we're not we're not approaching NASDAQ scale latency quite yet. you know, we're on the like 8 to 10 millisecond range, whereas NASDAQ is, I think, at least another order of"
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "magnitude faster than that. Uh, but it's faster than than, you know, comp competition in in the decentralized space for sure. But, but certainly there's lots of room to improve and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "all of the the micro structure experts at at trad firms that if they're microwave towers would would laugh, but you got to start somewhere."
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think you remove a lot of toxic flow by using speed bumps versus things like cancel priority. Cancel priority gives, you know, makers last look at takers hands. And so if you see your trade, if"
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "if Jump sees they're trading against Win Mute or some really informed person flow, they can pull their order just because they don't want to trade against that individual, which makes sense for"
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "for the makers. But as a as a taker, you can you you see uh excess slippage at times. You can be placing orders and you can have people front run them. You can have people pull orders and you you see"
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "excess slippage which you generally speaking see a little bit less of on lighter."
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I think one one one like north north star here is is we want the order book to be what you see is what you get."
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "And obviously, you know, there may be an organic price change between the time you decide to click the button and when you click the button, but you know, we don't want surprises and we don't want"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "people to feel like they're being taken advantage of. Trading is changing, not gradually. Right now, OKX just launched Trading Bots directly inside the OKX app. Grid trading, DCA arbitrage. You"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "set your strategy once and it executes around the clock. No staring at charts all day. No manual entries, no missing moves while you're asleep. And for the first time, automated trading actually"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "feels simple. But OKX is thinking bigger than just trading. They also launched the agent payments protocol, an open standard that lets AI agents execute full commercial transactions on chain."
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The Ethereum Foundation, Uniswap, and AWS are already building on it, and now it's live inside the United States. And new users who deposit and trade can get up to $500 in Bitcoin through the"
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Bankless Link. The link is in the show notes to learn more. Not investment advice, not available in New York or Texas. $100,000 is up for grabs."
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "MetaMask and Ono are giving it away in the Ono trading competition. 5 weeks, three tiers. Whoever earns the best percentage return in each tier wins the biggest cut. Pick from 260 Ono tokenized"
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "stocks. funds and commodities to swap inside MetaMask and let your portfolio do the talking. If you think you can outrade everyone else, this is your chance to prove it. From now until June"
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "18th, click the link in the description below and opt in on MetaMask Mobile."
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Trade RWAS on mobile or desktop to compete, not investment advice. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Okay. So, the themes, the threads that like I think I'm identifying here is like we have we have this cracked cracked engineering team that is doing this thing which is uh really minimizing"
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the latency, best latency in crypto for on a purpose platform. as I understand it. Um and and then in addition to that, this same cracked engineering team is going out and doing just white glove"
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "integrations with things like Telegram, doing kind of the hard work to get flows. Uh and then with the just the microstructure inside of the exchange, doing the things that really optimize"
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for fairness and confidence in the platform, which attracts some of the larger the larger whales, the bigger market makers, the bigger institutions."
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "uh the ZK uh rollup side of things also doing that same thing. ZK is a technical challenge, but again, we have this allegedly cracked engineering team to leverage ZK technology to do kind of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "thing that the Ethereum community really always wanted to do. It's like, look, look what you can do. Look at the magic with ZK. You can prove everything. You can prove the state of things, pro"
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "provable fairness. And lighter is actually just like productizing that and taking that to ideally to parties outside of crypto and say, \"Hey, like our exchange is fantastic and also we"
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "have pers and you don't have pers, but we have per so come trade on our platform.\" So yeah, I think that's a good summary, David. But but one thing to keep in mind is Lighter didn't just"
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "choose ZK to sound smart. They chose it because it was a good architectural fit for what they were trying to build. And uh the same thing with Ethereum. They chose Ethereum for security because it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "a good architectural fit for what they're trying to build which is a application specific uh rollup that you know you know is very opinionated about the design choices it makes uh to"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "support the application of trading whatever those assets are whatever those instruments are and so that's led to I think yesterday lighter had something like over 10,000 transactions per second"
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "which is far and away the most in the Ethereum ecosystem um while only using maybe 1% of the blob space something like bass for example uh somewhere around 100 transactions per second. Corr"
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "me if I'm wrong, will and David, you might know this as well, but also the choice of using ZK should allow them to do true portfolio margining better than those without, specifically with things"
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "with options just because that is very computationally heavy and so they should be able to do portfolio margin at scale with spot per options better than most competitors which is which is something"
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that I think people just haven't thought of yet just because we don't really have onchain options outside of outside of derive that have that have really hit scale. I I think what you're getting at"
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and what aligns with my intuition is that um an exchange especially one with a centralized sequencer that has the computational bandwidth that I'm assuming lighter has is they can just simply do more"
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "computation and since they are also the single source of truth as opposed to maybe even something like hyperlquid which is still a decentralized network of nodes since there's a single source"
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of truth plus the computational bandwidth they can make uh stronger assurances is about like what happens when positions net out across the exchange and can do that simulation to be more expressive in some of their"
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "products uh like options. I think that's what you're kind of getting at."
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Technically, anyone can generate the proofs. It's just why would they?"
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Because it's it's expensive to make a proof and you're unlikely to do it unless you are the exchange itself. But it is cheap to verify a proof. So from the user's perspective, as long as the"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "proofs are being generated and they can trivially see that the rules are being followed, they should be happy. Okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Okay. I want to talk about uh the real world assets on lighter because I think any purpose exchange that only sticks to crypto assets is going to remain constrained by how big that market is."
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh and as we've seen even on Hyperlquid like real world assets on Hyperlquid or have flipped crypto assets on Hyperlid in terms of volume. One thing that was actually surprised to note is that uh uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "lighter listed SpaceX preo pre IPO market on Lighter like two weeks before it did on Hyperlid and I actually didn't hear about that until after it got listed on Hyperlid. Maybe we can"
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "talk about how Lighter's strategy for getting into this pre-IPO uh market, which I think is kind of like the frontier, and what their strategy is, how this works, and how they're going to grow it. Yeah. I mean,"
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "certainly, Lighter doesn't have the the size uh or loudness of the community behind it at this point that Hyperlid has, and so it makes sense that that you didn't necessarily hear about it. Uh it"
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "also makes sense that real world asset volume is taking off uh for some of the reasons that you mentioned specifically on hyperlquid. I think there's also some speculation around a trade XYZ airdrop"
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "for example that might be driving some of it and you know in tandem with uh as as flip mentioned the the fees on rwas being significantly lower than they are on crypto assets. All of that tends to"
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "induce a lot more volume. Lighter itself is uh you know listing more and more RDWA assets every week. Uh there are you know various indices and and commodities and and equities not just from from the"
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "US market but various markets around the world and and it remains a core focus area for growth."
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. As far as RWA RWA growth goes. I think often times we forget like the the leader right now in the decentralized per space, Hyperliquid, they they really the product is killer,"
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "but they really started to gain a ton of traction when they started listing assets that weren't listed elsewhere."
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And I think you see this a little bit with RWAS as well. A lot of the group chats on Telegram and Twitter, like everyone's trading memory stocks, compute, robotics, and things like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And as you get these assets listed that people want to trade with with some leverage that they maybe they can't get on IBKR, they they want to trade them in some some other fashion. And so I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "there there's a game to be played here where if you can see where the the puck is going with regards to like the hot potato of assets running that we're seeing right now, I think you can you"
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "can earn a lot of market share that way because both products are incredible."
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And if you can get the product listed there first and then get people in front of it, let them know that hey, this product exists. You can trade this here if you want to, then I think you can get"
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "a lot of market share there. And I that's something I'm like looking for like other teams and doing like a was was first to really lean into RWA now variational with with the recent race"
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "from Dragonfly announcing the push there. And so you're seeing this big push and I'm really curious to see if if lighter can start to bootstrap some of these markets a little bit faster than"
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "than competitors. So if if I'm a per exchange, I'm I think I kind of am just looking at the United States onshore market and thinking like that is the market to go after. Like if whether even"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Coinbase, Robin Hood, Binance, whatever, like the onshore regulated approved PERPS market is like this golden goose that everyone wants that no one can really get because we don't quite have"
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "clarity yet about United States PEPs."
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But it seems to be that that should be where lighter is going. uh is that part of the like explicit strategy will what can you say about that?"
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, 100%. So if if you listen to Vlad on the last lighter investor update call, you know, he talks about uh you know the the regulatory licenses that that lighter pursuing and and just as"
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you say that the main reason is the the size of the US market and our desire to participate in it. Uh lighter lighter is based in the US. the the late token is issued directly out of the uh you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Delaware CC Corp and you know it there's a presence on the ground uh with you know all of the important people making decisions on the regulatory side and and I I don't know exactly uh or I don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "even think the SEC and CFTC know exactly how the regulations are going to shape out but certainly uh there there are people from the crypto industry that are there to advocate for common sense"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "It seems like that that is a hundred billion dollar market that that again no one's really claimed because it's it seems unclaimable yet. Yeah, that's that's correct. And I I think that"
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "obviously the US market uh is is a big piece of the picture and uh you know whatever the requirements wind up being for accessing the US market whether it's like onchain KYC or or or you know uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "maybe it's like asurances about uh you know the exchange operating fairly. Uh I think that blockchain protocols uh are well positioned to compete."
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Okay. Interesting. One of Coinbase's strategy is that it has like the first party exchange where like most retail people go onto Coinbase with their accounts, hook up their bank accounts,"
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "trade there, but then also they're doing the whitelisting strategy. And so they are also the back-end exchange for Charles Schwab who like doesn't want to build a first party exchange. And so"
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they kind of just whitelist Coinbase and provide Bitcoin and Ether trading to their clients, but it's really Coinbase in the background. Uh is is lighter also thinking something along these terms?"
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "So, one of one of the big reasons that uh I think that building on top of lighter is attractive is that the the underlying fee structure uh is is more appealing. And so, if you are the party"
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like Charles Schwab or or Fidelity or any of these US trad institutions uh and you're making this kind of decision, the first thing you're going to look for is is the underlying venue"
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "regulated. And then once you've checked that box, you're going to be like, okay, what are the commercial terms? And uh you know I I would say that blockchain products generally tend to have lower"
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "structural costs and are therefore better positioned to offer more appealing commercial terms to their customers. In 2024, emerging markets generated over $115 billion in annual yield for investors with yields ranging"
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "between 10 to 40%. These are some of the highest most persistent yields on Earth."
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "The problem, DeFi can't access them."
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Bricks changes this. Built on Mega ETH, Bricks takes emerging market money markets and solvent carry and turns them into composable primitives you can access straight from your wallet. While"
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "DeFi investors earn 3 to 6% on stable coins and T bills, institutions have been harvesting 10 to 50% yields backed by sovereign monetary policy. BRICS connects these worlds with institutional"
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "grade tokenization, local banking rails, compliance across jurisdictions, and real-time stable coin settlement. Brrics does the heavy lifting so DeFi can finally access real collateral and"
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "structured products on top of real world yield. Even the best carry trades can be within reach. Bricks brings DeFi's promise to the emerging world and brings emerging market yield to your wallet."
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Let the yield flow with Bricks. Some exciting news. We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it. The best cryptocycle investor I know, his"
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "name is Michael Nato. He runs the D5 report. This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 1010 price drop happened. His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point. I've been following"
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "him for years. And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes. Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of"
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Bitcoin, Ether, and where we are in the cycle. There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday. They're 30 minutes, they're short, they're punchy."
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. So, let's do it together. Go subscribe to this podcast."
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Search the DeFi Report wherever you get your podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes."
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "There's a new episode waiting for you now. So, looking at the um uh PERS exchange, it doesn't seem actually all that complicated to get a real world asset listed. It's just like an oracle."
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh and even with the preo markets, they kind of just like guess a price and then a market appears. And so really, the game is liquidity. So, what's the strategy for getting liquidity to"
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actually show up on these markets?"
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean the oracle part is is slightly more complicated, but you're right. Any anything you can get a price feed for, you can trade. And so, uh, the the most important financial"
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "primitive is the order book. Lighter's built a a fully verifiable order book on chain that is, you know, a performant, low latency place to trade these markets. And so, the question then"
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "becomes, can you get the market makers on board to quote? And then the question is, who are the natural traders of these assets? and and you know do they need to hedge somewhere else? Do they want to uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "just structurally be long and I think in the case of of like RWAS there there is some hedging demand uh and there are perhaps people trading on lighter that are that are able to like buy the spot"
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "token of the underlying and take the basis trade but there is a a like capital cost hurdle to overcome. uh you know if I'm a market maker like I may not be willing to leave a bunch of"
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "orders open on the book because that takes up margin and margin means those are dollars that I can't be earning money market making elsewhere. So, uh, Lighters built a RFQ product on top of"
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the order book that basically lets large traders, uh, signal to market makers that they want to make a trade and then the market makers can provide just in time quotes. But all of it goes through"
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the order book. But, um, we've got some very promising, uh, early feedback from from the beta of this and and we're looking to roll it out more widely very soon."
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> I think this is a huge move by Lighter."
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Uh I wrote I wrote a thesis uh mid late last year talking about how I thought the the winning exchanges would have multiple execution environments. They would have a an order book a a club"
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they'd have an RFQ system and then they would also have a privacy offering at some point and kind of in that order and lighter is the first one to to have more than one. uh you've got variational"
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "osteium the two prominent RFQ onchain brokers if you will and now you've got lighter stepping in and I think it's just another way in which a user can express a type of bet and get filled in"
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "a different way that's more optimal for them and I think it's it's a huge step for lighter and it's it's an incredible way to bootstrap liquidity for longtail assets and you tend to see better fills"
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "on longtail assets both crypto and RWAS through an RFQ system. So you see you see great great fills on oium and variational on these longtail assets."
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yes, it's you know early on their bootstrapping was difficult but as these scale they the liquidity and the fills and the execution costs with using RFQ on these longtail is is quite good. And"
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "so I'm very excited to see lighter kind of moving and having both order book and and an RFQ type of system. And RFQ is is very different like the way in which they do lighter does RFQ is very"
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "different than variational or oium. And you know, you could get you could get Caldor, you could get Lucas and Vlad in a conversation and hash that out, but like just to know like I'm not saying"
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they're the same, but like the way in which a user gets built is pretty similar. I see. Really, it sounds like the broadstrokes of everything we talk about is like lighter is trying to evolve itself into a"
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "platform. Uh, and it does that by allowing more expressivity towards its what it deems as like valuable components of the marketplace. And so like right now it's kind of like a first-party exchange but really is"
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "trying to like scale out into being a platform across all hubs and all all spokes around its hub. Yeah, it's more instruments to trade uh both like in terms of number of per listings uh new"
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "instruments to trade like spot options etc. and then more ways to trade them whether it's directly on the order book uh RFQ etc. with the US regulatory licenses. I think that's something that"
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Lighter has over Hyperlquid because I don't really know. Maybe Hyperlquid can go get those things because they do have J Shvinsky fighting the fight in in DC."
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But TBD because they're still a distributed protocol. I don't know really how that would work. I don't really know if anyone knows. Uh but Lighter still has to go up against Coinbase and Kraken and and Robin Hood"
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "domestically. Uh aren't aren't those like pretty big names to have to go up against? Because all of those want to do per domestically inside the United States. So how how would lighter expect"
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to compete with some of those gargantuans?"
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, so it's worth noting that that none no one uh including lighter has a license to offer these products in the US right now. Um from what I understand on the regulatory side, there's appetite"
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "to uh you know find creative ways to make sure that blockchain platforms can you know get licenses and and comply with regulations that weren't necessarily written when blockchains"
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "existed. And uh like again like I said earlier in the conversation I think blockchains can offer like a a better product both from a a permissionlessness um you know verifiability and and cost"
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "structure perspective. But yeah you're right there are uh you know many large uh you know financial services businesses in the US that are going to want to compete. But I one thing I would"
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "point to is how difficult it is to actually build like a you know highly performant venue and if if I'm one of these uh companies and I'm doing a costbenefit analysis, I'm going to look"
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "at you know how quickly can I get to market working with someone else as an infrastructure partner versus like how much money am I going to have to spend and how much time is it going to take me"
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "to build this in-house. And uh you know one thing that we see a lot in the US is that talent density tends to converge at startups which is why there's often room for you know new entrance to to disrupt"
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "disrupt uh the status quo."
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I see. So so maybe one perspective is that you know maybe Coinbase uh is intimidated by what it takes to make a performant per exchange. And >> I would say less so less so Coinbase. uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know they've they've been uh you know in the crypto space a long time but there there are plenty of financial services uh people that aren't necessarily used to the you know like uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "crypto UX bar shall we say like crypto products generally have a much higher um level of UX in my opinion than many tried products and and I think uh you know there there are a lot of hard"
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "things that have to happen under the hood to achieve that."
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> I see. So, so maybe maybe I'm stuck in the crypto industry. Maybe like I need to think even beyond Coinbase and beyond the bubble of crypto. And I think what you're alluding to is like, oh yeah, but"
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like lighter is trying to get integrated to the back end of some of the biggest brokerages out there. And even those people are probably even more intimidating to look at a Perf exchange"
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and try to build that inhouse."
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Well, I I don't know exactly how it's going to shake out. Uh I think Lighter has a a um you know, very good chance. Uh, and you know, at current valuation levels, I think that chance is"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "is underpriced."
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I'll I'll bite on that. I'll bite on that. Yeah, I think I think they they'll want to go after is is the brokers and be the the backends there. I think I think lighter is very much so"
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "moving towards a super app. Uh, again, another thesis I wrote last year was like per Dexes are going to eat all of finance. And you're kind of seeing this this iteration where they're their asset"
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "managers kind of like a vault. Then you have the the bank, the exchange, the clearing house, the custodians, eventually prediction markets, options, and then you you recently saw USGC and"
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Hyperlid, they get the stable coin, they'll have borrow, they'll have prediction markets, HIPP4, things like that. They're all going to converge into one platform and venue. And I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "lighter is one of those that has a decent head start into Will's price."
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Like the valuation definitely doesn't reflect that."
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I want to talk about the valuation. I'm looking at the uh price of lighter right now. was coming in at a $291 million market cap with a fully dilution diluted value of 1.16 billion."
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh not that many tokens uh are well below the $1 billion market cap that seemingly are alive these days. Uh lighter feels very very much alive. Lots of development there. Uh just recently"
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just raised a bunch of money not terribly long ago from like Robin Hood and a bunch of others and as you guys have alluded to apparently allegedly that's cracked the dev team. Um, can we"
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "talk about the fundamentals of the LIT token? Uh, so similar to Hyperlid, there are buybacks and burns. Uh, there's some amount of fees. Uh, can we kind of maybe flip I'll throw this one to you. Can we"
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "kind of just like do broad strokes over what the Lit token is?"
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah, absolutely. So, they do they do buybacks of the revenues, 100% of buybacks. What they do is every hour they sweep revenues and then place limit orders down uh 10% uh below the current"
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "market price and do it as as maker orders. So they're not taking liquidity out of their own token on their own own venue and so they place some that way and so they do 100% of buybacks with"
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "with revenues there. Um and then as far as like fundamentals that we alluded to earlier is like the distribution strategy I think is quite unique. They have pricing power with market makers."
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "So I think there's there's a world in which you probably see a 50% increase in their take rate that the revenue they make per dollar traded. I think there's a world in which you see a 50% increase"
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "there and then you assume no growth. you could have a 50% increase in revenues and therefore buybacks and value acrruel to to users and you can see your your buyback yields increase to let's call it"
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "closer to 20% which I think is quite attractive. Um, and I think that's that's a great spot for them to be as an underdog in this space. And I I think there's a lot of dogmatism on Twitter"
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and Telegram. It's like, oh, if you hold Lighter, you hate Hyperloop. No, you can you can hold both. Crazy concept. Like I disclaimer, I hold both. And I will continue to hold both. I think their"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "distribution strategies are different."
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And I just I do like where lighter sits today."
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I view I view it a bit differently. Uh yes, I I I am happy to see that, you know, the team has committed to token value acrruel and that uh revenue goes to buybacks and they've made the public statement that"
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know all value from lighter products and services is going to acrue to the token. Uh, I see it as like more of a growth play. Like lighter currently does uh like a maybe 20% of the crypto volume"
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "that Hyperlid does, something like 10% of the RWA volume, but it it's not monetized to the same degree. And that's a growth strategy. M >> and and so like you you would you would expect a different order of magnitude"
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "difference in the valuations if they were monetized in the same place but you know lighter is focused on growth and I I know everyone else is focused on growth. This is just lighter approach to"
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it."
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I think that the quality of that growth too and quality of those revenues I think Peter Teio talks about it all the time. He's like who who cares about how much revenues you make in a short"
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "period of time is how durable are those revenues? That's why I really like their go to market strategy on on distribution. like you're going after quality distribution and silicico like"
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "really working with them making sure the traders like the product telegram making sure that they really like this product and it it's how they want it to be and so on and so on down the road is like"
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that's a very unique strategy I think that's like high quality uh revenues that they'll continue to grow like Hyperlid's grown incredibly fast and a lot of the revenues are durable but I I"
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like to look at the durability of those revenues and the partners that they're integrating with so when I look at the valuations here. The uh $291 million market cap, $1.16 billion FTV. Big gap"
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "there. It's like a three a little bit more than a 3x. What accounts for the gap between the market cap and the fully deduation?"
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> So there's a vesting schedule for uh team tokens and investor tokens like uh you know most crypto projects have. Uh in the case of hyperlquid they they they have uh the difference between their"
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "circulating and FTV is is team tokens."
  },
  {
    "i": 323,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Uh there's also in in both cases a you know a bucket of unallocated tokens that that might get distributed for future growth but you know we really don't know what what uh each of the respective"
  },
  {
    "i": 324,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "teams is going to do but for all intents and purposes they don't exist right now."
  },
  {
    "i": 325,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> I hope they never use those those tokens for growth. I hope they never use them."
  },
  {
    "i": 326,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "And then I one one part of like the unlocks I'd say look at the cap table."
  },
  {
    "i": 327,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "The cap table is is very different than most crypto rounds. I mean you founder fund ribbit on Robin like those are very different names than you usually see in a crypto round and you know speculating"
  },
  {
    "i": 328,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "as a third party I think a lot of those names those people they don't look for a quick 2x on an on an asset I think they're they invest in generational businesses and so I mean if I'm sitting"
  },
  {
    "i": 329,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "in their seat I'm like okay this is you know a 50x or it's a zero and like that's just the way I think about it like it's if I go buy 10 million market cap startup token like I'm thinking okay"
  },
  {
    "i": 330,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "give me a 25x or it's a bust and I think they probably think about it similarly and I don't want to talk for Will or anyone else who's invested but like that's the way in which I I think about"
  },
  {
    "i": 331,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "it."
  },
  {
    "i": 332,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I mean I've certainly got many many zeros in my investing past and it's it's part of the game."
  },
  {
    "i": 333,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Um I in in terms of like uh whether to give out tokens for growth I I view it like as a costbenefit analysis and if you have opportunities to spend on growth in a way that's going to create"
  },
  {
    "i": 334,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "durable value for the business you should do it. it most crypto projects uh have have failed to meet that bar with most of their token distributions is something that that I think about a lot."
  },
  {
    "i": 335,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> That's a good point. That is a good point. Like I think I think if you were to like go to a season whatever a second season second airdrop, I think that's probably like a bad expected return on"
  },
  {
    "i": 336,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "dollar invested versus if you go to like IBKR and they're like, \"Hey, can we do a trading competition?\" Yes, please. Like we will happily do that. I think I think there's a big difference there and I"
  },
  {
    "i": 337,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "think crypto Twitter thinks it's think about thinks about the former all the time versus will and other investors think about the former."
  },
  {
    "i": 338,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Oh, I like air drops too."
  },
  {
    "i": 339,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> When when air drops like surprise air drops for >> pray there's not Yeah. It's it really was like uh you know airdrops. It's a good name because they they come from heaven."
  },
  {
    "i": 340,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Right. Yeah. You're not supposed to know when an airdrop comes. It's supposed to surprise you."
  },
  {
    "i": 341,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Um Okay. Okay, so maybe this is probably a question for Flip. Flip when you there again the two numbers $291 million market cap, $1.16 billion FTV. Where do like which number do you look at? Uh I"
  },
  {
    "i": 342,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "don't I don't look at them that much to be honest. I think they both like both the leaders in this space probably go probably go much higher. Um I think if I'm actually running like a fundamental"
  },
  {
    "i": 343,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "analysis, I'll use like an adjusted market cap is what I'll do is I'll take future unlocks like that I know are coming. So team and investors and then I'll take out anything staked and any"
  },
  {
    "i": 344,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "any tokens bought back and that's what I'll use as my market cap or FTV and so I call it my adjusted market cap metric and then I do it relative to to revenues is how I would look at that and I would"
  },
  {
    "i": 345,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "also include you know yield that they get on on uh stable coins on the platform. So like Hyperlid gets 90% of USDC that's on the platform. Lighter gets something they haven't announced."
  },
  {
    "i": 346,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "They don't know what it is, but they have announced that they're working with with Circle. So, let's let's say it's 50%. I would also include that in the residence as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 347,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, I haven't crunched the numbers. It sounds like you guys have when it comes to actual revenue and I broadstrokes, I think what you guys are saying is that the actual valuation of the Lit token"
  },
  {
    "i": 348,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "punches below its weight class when it comes to the actual revenue dollars that it's actually pulling in. Uh maybe you guys can nod your head or shake your head if you >> Yeah. So, it's it's uh relative to the"
  },
  {
    "i": 349,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "market cap."
  },
  {
    "i": 350,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Relative to market, right? Of course, o over over the last month, lighters bought back, you know, twice the percentage of the supply. Uh that's true of the circulating supply and the fully"
  },
  {
    "i": 351,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "diluted supply because those ratios are about the same for both projects >> as Hyperlid has."
  },
  {
    "i": 352,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 353,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Uh and and so, you know, the market is giving Hyperlid a larger multiple. There are many reasons why it might do that."
  },
  {
    "i": 354,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Maybe maybe it's pricing in some incumbency advantage or or thinks that it's, you know, closer to having exit velocity. But uh that's where the numbers are today."
  },
  {
    "i": 355,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And I would I would say as like an outsider, I would also say that I think the market's pricing in higher quality revenues for Hyperliquid."
  },
  {
    "i": 356,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Okay. Yeah. Okay. Which I think is is fair like in a post post TGE world, especially going into TGE to you know to assume it trades 70 times revs >> if you discount revs to some extent that"
  },
  {
    "i": 357,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "seems kind of crazy. But here at, you know, call it 25 times, 20 times depending on what metric you use, it seems a little bit more more fair and in line with something you might see on"
  },
  {
    "i": 358,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like the CME and things like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 359,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I don't I don't think I don't think the right way to value these businesses is is current revenues just because the TAM is so large. Um, and so it's it's it's much more so about like"
  },
  {
    "i": 360,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "positioning for future growth in my mind."
  },
  {
    "i": 361,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Right. So the question I'm trying to get to is like why is it only $1.1 billion?"
  },
  {
    "i": 362,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Like was there a failure in this strategy of lighter? Are people just not aware of it? I mean you guys are obviously bullish. That's literally why I'm having you. So maybe you guys are"
  },
  {
    "i": 363,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "making me bullish. So maybe that's what's going on here. But is it just like the per arena feels like it has such a premium on it and the lighter token doesn't seem to reflect that. If"
  },
  {
    "i": 364,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": ">> if I look at like what lighter built in the last 18 months, like I would say they've they've probably exceeded my expectations that I had 18 months ago."
  },
  {
    "i": 365,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "uh in terms of like how they've navigated uh you know the you know few months since TGE I would say like if I was to make any changes I would have perhaps uh you know done them on the"
  },
  {
    "i": 366,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "communication side but I've been very happy with with what I've seen from a a product development standpoint and and shipping velocity and and so uh I I think also there's like generally like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 367,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "a a broad lack of awareness among the trading community that they can uh you know better quality execution on lighter and and I think uh the more time passes the the the more people are going"
  },
  {
    "i": 368,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "to be aware of what's in their financial best interest."
  },
  {
    "i": 369,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Yeah. I would I would just just the to answer your question directly. I think it was uh the market not sure how to discount lighter revenues going into their TGE and then I think post TG it"
  },
  {
    "i": 370,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "was comms which have gotten significantly better since since you know call it the last quarter or so their comms have gotten a lot better and I think they're starting to build trust"
  },
  {
    "i": 371,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "and good relationships with with funds and community as well. So, I've been very very encouraged to see that turn around. But, I mean, the product, I mean, the the things they've shipped in"
  },
  {
    "i": 372,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "the last six months are are incredible."
  },
  {
    "i": 373,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "I think if if if they didn't have a token, I think the sentiment towards them would be completely different. I think it'd be a 180. It'd be like, okay, this team is absolutely cracked, and"
  },
  {
    "i": 374,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "they truly do have one of the best engineering teams in in finance."
  },
  {
    "i": 375,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "What? Okay, why why do we keep coming back to the cracked engineering team?"
  },
  {
    "i": 376,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "How do we actually know they're so cracked? What do we know? Just look at the product velocity of the the products they've shipped and what they like not just in the last six months but since"
  },
  {
    "i": 377,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "since you know the early Elliot days I mean team is incredible."
  },
  {
    "i": 378,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> And and just be in the community a little bit more. Uh can we talk about uh if I'm if I'm peaked and I kind of want to join the community. You guys talked about there's investor calls. Uh what"
  },
  {
    "i": 379,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "what does it mean to be like a part of the the lighter community? How how would I find it? Where would I go? What behavior? What would I do? Yeah, I mean I I would say open x.com and and figure"
  },
  {
    "i": 380,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it out yourself."
  },
  {
    "i": 381,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Ask Rob."
  },
  {
    "i": 382,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> All right."
  },
  {
    "i": 383,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> No, I think they're pretty active in the Discord. Okay."
  },
  {
    "i": 384,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Um so I would I would go there and then the the Twitter account's gotten quite active as well. Cool."
  },
  {
    "i": 385,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> And from there you can you can just figure it out as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 386,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Sure."
  },
  {
    "i": 387,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": ">> Just start asking questions and and giving high quality feedback and people will reach out."
  },
  {
    "i": 388,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "What are what if you what are you guys looking at for lighter in like the short and medium term? Like is there anything you guys are anticipating about lighter?"
  },
  {
    "i": 389,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Anything you're looking forward to?"
  },
  {
    "i": 390,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Anything you're excited about? I just want to continue to see quality distribution partners, continue to see that, continue to see this bottoming in and volumes and revenues and then to"
  },
  {
    "i": 391,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "eventually see uh some pricing power um on the maker side and and maybe even through some ancillary product offerings and love to see their take rate increase quite meaningfully. I think right now"
  },
  {
    "i": 392,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "it's like 6 bips. I'd love to see it get up to one bip. Um and I think if I see that over the next one to two quarters, I'm I'm very excited. So that's what I'm looking for."
  },
  {
    "i": 393,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, I'd like to see them win some big distribution partner partnerships. As Flip said, I'd also like to see them deliver on uh you the product roadmap which includes things like options which"
  },
  {
    "i": 394,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "includes a lighter EVM programmability layer and a few other things. Uh but yeah, there's there's uh there's a ton to do and uh you know, we'll see how fast they get it done."
  },
  {
    "i": 395,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Well, one of the good resources for people I think is actually Flip. Uh, Flip writes some good stuff about Lighter on his Twitter and also for Deli. I I always got it on Twitter, but"
  },
  {
    "i": 396,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "I think probably also for Deli as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 397,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Absolutely. Flip will uh I had questions now. I got some answers. Appreciate you guys coming on the show."
  },
  {
    "i": 398,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Yeah, thanks for having us. This was fun."
  },
  {
    "i": 399,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": ">> Bank, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in, but this is the frontier. It's not for everyone. We glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot."
  }
]