[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "[Music] Welcome everybody. Uh special guest today with us on Steady Lads and also a special week in the markets. I feel like we're rediscovering all kinds of things. Uh we'll get into that, but welcome."
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Welcome, Jeff. Thanks for having me on."
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You don't you don't do many of these, so we're we're excited to uh to have you here. I think this is the first podcast you've done since um the the massive TG you guys had. Yeah. Uh usually say once"
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "a quarter, but I think barely missed the last quarter. Awesome. Well, we we are like truly excited to um to get into Hyperliquid and um you know get more of your story, but let's start with the"
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "market. I mean, it's um Jeff, you need to disable shorting. This is brutal, man. Yeah, just take take away the red button. Uh like kind of the the Korean stock market, I think, do that sometimes"
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "or turn the graphs upside down. The graph. So, we're recording towards the end of week here. We've gone through uh Trump's tariff announcements and we'll look at that a little bit. It looks"
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like, you know, Bitcoin after touching 88 is is back in the low 80s and Ethereum way below 1,800 at this point."
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And uh there was this meme going around with the duck and he's like chasing the guy around. He's like, \"What is under Solana 120? What is under Solana 120?\""
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Because it always gets defended. Well, now we're at 113. So, I think we're going to find out what's under 120 Solana. Yeah, like pretty rough markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It it it definitely feels like the most quiet ever since 2023 in my opinion. Um like that maybe like August 2023 is the last time it's felt this quiet. And I don't know like if you guys have been"
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "doing a lot on chain but whenever I use mainnet now and the gas is one gwei I feel like that move that where's that that book in that series um uh the last of us where like the zombies have taken"
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "over and you still have all these buildings you have like a you have like everything's still there but there's no people and standing here tonight I'm afraid that I don't hear a thing"
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "just silence gas has been like.5 gwei and I just like I I put coins on a and it's costs like 60 cents. I'm like yo no one's using this [ __ ] anymore. What the [ __ ] I I wanted to ask you guys is like"
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "you know Jeff famously you kind of uh drew a line in the sand and you said Trump it you know is going to capitulate sooner than we think and you know he can't really take the pain of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "markets but what he did on liberation day yesterday was pretty pretty insane right I mean do you still have that conviction? What do you think was insane? Just like the the specific"
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "numbers or like what what what specific?"
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Yeah, I mean the numbers that the China tariffs like you know it's they're adding an additional 34% on top of the about 20% they already had, right? Which brings them up to 50% plus, right? And"
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "importing goods from there into the US is going to be brutal. They're going to have less exports. We're going to have less imports. Clearly things will slow down, right? The numbers weren't a"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "blanket 10% tariff or reciprocal just matching what's been imposed on us. They went well above and beyond that and they also you know to that end they didn't even use real numbers right like we look"
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "at this analysis this has been going around Twitter uh they didn't use a formula to actually derive how to calculate tariffs and impose them on other countries they actually used a"
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "formula based on our trade deficit and clearly some of these countries are always going to have a trade deficit to us like it is not fair or excuse me it's not possible to think you can't think"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "that Vietnam or Costa Rica is going to have a trade surplus with us, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Yeah. I mean, let's look at the Glossy Capital. Kevin, who was a recent guest, had a a tweet, which is, I think, more practical. He's just saying, \"Look, there's a message here from Trump. It's"
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just we're going to start with just going fully overboard.\" And, you know, the numbers are made up. It's fine. The more unhinged, the better. We just started at a sort of crazy place, show"
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that we're willing to to cause turmoil."
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And then he's going to start his deal making process. okay, like you're you're going to be doing something that uh puts you in the good zone, so we'll we'll play ball with you."
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And there was always going to be more pain before uh before he capitulated. I never said it was going to be like done."
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "There was always going to give me more pain. So, we'll see. We'll see how long it takes."
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Um but this is this is generally expected and I don't know. I'm not surprised at all. Man, I wish I had that that meme up like uh uh slam short, you know, two minutes before the Liberation Day announcement. Now back to long now."
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Now short again."
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Uh Jeff, I I know you you're been heads down building. It's been a long time. Market conditions come and go. Sometimes it's bullish, sometimes it's bearish. Um but you know even for an exchange like the volumes uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like the participation the general breadth of the market obviously is um affected. Do things change for you when it's when it's quiet like this? Do you do you go in to a different mode or what"
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "happens when the market's quiet? Um it's not that quiet. I think it gets quiet after the red stops, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like yeah I think it's like volumes actually spike during sharp down moves and I think it's you know like I think there was almost 10 billion today traded on Hyperliquid yeah it's it's still busy I"
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "mean honestly yeah we don't we don't look at the markets too much we're just we're just building and uh yeah not not for not for the day not even for the the year but kind of for just like the super"
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "long term what what is like the metric that you uh use either internally or just like you know in your head to know if you're going in the right direction."
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Is it like market share of the entire perks market like a percentage of Binance or um because absolute numbers you know will fluctuate with uh with with with the market. Do you look at"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "your percentage even the it's kind of interesting even the percentage fluctuates with the absolute numbers. So um I think Hyperliquid tends to have a larger share when the volumes are higher"
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "your percentage even the it's kind of interesting even the percentage fluctuates with the absolute numbers. So um I think Hyperliquid tends to have a larger share when the volumes are higher"
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "which to me is a good sign. I mean, I think I think it's just because the there's less HFT on HFT volume. So, there like the sort of like intercept of that line is is lower. Um, so it's it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "a good sign to me. Um, but yeah, we kind of vaguely track like percentage of market. So, sort of like percentage of Binance, percentage of Binance are kind of like the natural things to look at. But"
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "even that, that's still kind of like day-to-day. Like I I think there's a lot of misconceptions, you know, that we're just trying to build another exchange. Uh it's a big component, but it's it's actually um"
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "just sort of the the starting place. And we're we're trying to build something much bigger, and we're trying to build something that no one else is really even trying to build currently, which is"
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "interesting. It's a bit puts a lot of pressure on us because uh it's it's just like completely uncharted territory. I mean, we'd love to learn more and get into your vision."
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But just to kick off, you know, you're you've experienced over the last year something that very few founders in crypto experience. And I'm sure Justin wants to know. What does it feel like to"
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "actually like have product market fit?"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Well, it just feels like it kind of feels like you can no longer like pick what to do on a day-to-day basis. It's kind of like a lot of things are a lot of things are just kind of like the the"
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "the the world kind of tells you like, \"Hey, you need to do this, do that, and you're kind of just like trying like running to try to keep up, which is good. It's like a good problem to have,"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "but also um you know, kind of like often it's like you have no idea how long something's going to take to build anymore because you have no idea like if if the thing like 10xes in the next"
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "week, then you're probably not going to be working on your new thing for another month. So, it's like uh it's like you have like a cupcake stand and you're like making a recipe and and suddenly"
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you come to work one day and there's just like a massive line and you're like, \"Okay, just I guess like we're just going to just be cooking cupcakes all day now.\" Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean,"
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "it's definitely a good problem to have."
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "It's like it's kind of the the whole point of a startup I guess is is often like like the the sort of conventional wisdom is like you just do everything you can to get product market fit and"
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "then nobody really says what to do after because uh I guess so few startups kind of get there but uh it doesn't really get easier. I actually think it's well I I personally think it's like kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "easier to get product market fit but maybe that's that's a unconventional take. Like obviously there's been a lot of noise recently, right, with the whole Hyperliquid situation, like the Trump tariffs,"
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "but I think you know moments like this we kind of forget uh like you know what we're building for like why we're in this space. So can you kind of rehash like your original vision and like you"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "know you said what you're doing is unprecedented. So can you like just give us more color on what that is? Yeah, I would say the original vision was not this kind. It's it's not like we went"
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "one day woke up and we're like you know what would be great like revolutionizing finance. It's kind of like no, nobody really does that. So, um it was it was incremental, but I think basically the the steps were uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "okay well basically FTX had collapsed and we were kind of plugged really into DeFi and CEX at that point and just it it was a tragic moment for everyone. Uh, but we also just kind of looked around"
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "and and kind of saw like an opportunity to build something that people would finally understand like uh sort of like like build DeFi that people would finally like viscerally need and"
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "understand because of how how screwed they got. And so that was like the initial driver. It was it kind of didn't play out how we thought like sort of two weeks later everyone was back on um"
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "whatever other exchanges that had had come up. Um but uh it kind of got us the activation energy to to start building and originally it was just um let's build a let's build a perp dex and uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "you know self-custodial just like you know feature parity with centralized exchanges good liquidity and um that's like a product people need. When did you come up with this like HLP idea for a"
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "vault where people could you know if they don't want to trade they can still participate by putting money in the vault like was that a early vision or that like how did that come about? Yeah,"
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "that was super early because uh the FTX things was was super fresh in our minds and so we um our team came from a quantitative trading background so we kind of knew that there would be some"
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "parallels drawn and um and so the the sort of I think we very easily could have just done the Alameda thing not not the fraud part but the like just provide liquidity and like um just bootstrap in"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "exchange um but we chose not to because uh people are sick of this like insidery stuff, right? Like like all the central exchanges do it. It's um it's just kind of like well known at this point. Uh but"
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you had a tweet back then. Uh we I think we showed it on our last show actually."
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um you and I uh I remember those days you you tweeted about Bitget. you were like, you know, BitGet is cuz you were uh trading like you said, Chameleon trading, Chameleon Jeff. Um,"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "and you had realized that the the it wasn't a level playing field. You couldn't just participate and provide liquidity on Bitget. It was it was like they were doing it internally and"
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "they were like blocking other people from doing it. And I think you tweeted something and uh little did you know that you know X years later when uh when you have some uh random jelly"
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "that Bit would would would pop their head up and uh and and try to like uh you know can you tell us something about about that situation the this whole dynamic with with these"
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "centralized exchanges like that? Yeah, it's funny. I had actually like forgotten about that tweet. Um, and then someone else was like quote tweeting like, \"Hey, like remember this?\" And I"
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "was like, \"Oh.\" So, um, that was honestly just like so far back. I was I think I had probably like a hundred followers or whatever, you know, back then. And, um, I think when when we had decided we"
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "were going to like build basically people just kept saying, \"Oh, you need to tweet. You need to tweet.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "And I kind of like didn't do it for a long time. And then and then at some point realized, \"Oh, yeah. It's actually really important to you know like talk directly to users and it's like you can"
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "build the best thing ever but if nobody nobody knows about it it's like what are you doing? Um so yeah like like how how do you get how do you build a social media following of someone who's never"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "done this before? And um I was like well like maybe just expose some shady centralized exchange practices. Uh I think that works really well. So, um but but anyway, uh uh yeah, I I don't think"
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "there's that much going on. Like I mean people speculate. I I don't know. Um in terms of the current stuff, I think yes, I respect a lot of these centralized exchanges. I think they've they kind of"
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like did push the space for like like crypto would be nowhere without centralized exchanges. They they had to do the the marketing and the customer acquisition. They had to like really get"
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "get the users. So, um okay, let's go chronologically. So Hyperliquid, you didn't want to be like FTX trading on Alameda, you know, Alameda trading on FTX. You wanted to decentralize that in essence, like"
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "give it give it give it to the community to be able to do. Um is that is that kind of like how it progressed? Any exchange will tell you, oh yeah, yeah, we're like completely completely"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "transparent or whatever, right? But like obviously no way to really prove anything. Uh especially when it's centralized. And so um here we are building something better, decentralized, transparent. Um, and so"
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "why not really just like literally let anyone deposit into this thing that is protocol run and um, yeah, basically says like if you if you think it's unfair, like it's at least you're the one making money. And"
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "so that's I think that's like the strongest like most compelling argument to anyone that like this this this thing is is a public good. And um, I think over the history of its existence, it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "uh, it's done quite well. And um and yeah, I think like on on any centralized exchange or even like most decentralized exchanges, this this P&L goes to Yeah, you had this vault. I mean, this was"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "something that we've never seen before."
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "It was like a new primitive, this like central market making vault. Initially, I guess it was doing a large percentage of the of the volume. And over time as other market makers came in and and sort"
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "of you know traded tighter it became more of a backstop like an incentivized backstop because points uh at times when you guys had a points program you know I would say probably"
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the most successful points program uh cryptos had it it sort of has been absorbing liquidations which usually liquidations are um are profitable things to absorb if they're like natural"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "liquidations."
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and that's also just been profitable for the on average for for the Hyperliquid vault. Um obviously like sophisticated actors have done sophisticated trading strategies of in recent weeks um trying"
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "different things. First I think the the big first one was with Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "somebody really plowed max leverage on Ethereum and and started you know manipulating uh the price around then Bitcoin and then you know trying trying to use alts. So, um the first ones were"
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "quite successful. This the last one I guess like was going to be successful and and you kind of uh in the end like um once this Jelly token got delisted it ended up not being"
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "successful which was maybe a good thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "But how are how are you seeing the role of Hyperliquid now that it's it's sort of like a more mature platform and and everyone is just sort of targeting it now? Yeah. So Hyperliquid's role actually decreased a lot over"
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "the course of um its existence. So I so basically like when you say it does liquidations uh it actually by and large like does not take almost any liquidations. It only backstop liquidates. So um another unique thing"
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "about Hyperliquid is that the liquidations first go to the book and basically any user can sort of provide liquidity to to these liquidations like like you say like liquidations are kind"
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "of like the best flow. uh of all because it's uh it's someone who forced selling."
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Yeah. Doesn't actually want to make that trade. Um sort of being forced to make that trade because if if that trade weren't made then the platform would be potentially insolvent, right? So um it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like forced buyers, forced sellers. And so uh usually, you know, this goes to the centralized exchange operators."
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "There's this internal market making desk. They take it all over. They charge a massive rake on top. What like 1 2% something like that. And um the trade itself was also like good P&L because it comes with the whatever margin is left there, right? So um could we be making like like high single digit percentages um on average is my guess on this notional volume. So yeah, hypo that goes"
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "comes with the whatever margin is left there, right? So um could we be making like like high single digit percentages um on average is my guess on this notional volume. So yeah, the that goes"
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "on par with most centralized exchanges. like like Binance might be a little bit higher. Yeah. So, so like basically HLP does is like sort of like not really needed. It's like not an essential component. Market makers are super good."
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Like they're honestly like better than HLP. Uh they quote super super tight, super thick. Yeah. So I I would say like it's it's sort of if someone were to try to mess with HLP and like take the platform down that probably would have worked a lot better um back in the day when it was um more integral to the operation. Um, I'm happy to go to the HLP. I think it's not like uh I"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "think this is like this is something that there's like a few special cases that I'm sure every exchange needs to learn. Um, we think very very carefully about this stuff, but I think there is"
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "just there are just some edge cases and um yeah, I think I mean it's like an important lesson to learn. it was it was something that shouldn't have happened but I think the community as a whole the"
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "platform like really came out stronger um for it and I think I think a lot of the sort of criticism is is justified u but you know this this stuff happens and uh on centralized exchanges it bas you"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "basically just don't see it and I so in some sense like the transparency here uh is it was like it you could really tell how transparent this system is and there's no there's There's no denying"
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "It. Like like Twitter basically was all over this thing like minutes after it happened. I mean the main criticism that that that I had was like just the the size should never have been allowed to"
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "be put on that big where it's just such a large percentage of the entire like market cap of a token. Um yeah. So the the restriction the the OI cap actually did get hit. Um and HLP took"
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "over uh what was a $4 million short position at that time. And so yes, that is like that is too big. But um you know, you might say you might say like okay like for a vault with hundreds"
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "of millions of dollars um if there's a 3x max leverage asset with a you know $4 million liquidation like like maybe it's reasonable, right? Like of course you know if if you know that there's going"
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to be this like supply shock and this sort of coordinated squeeze and stuff like that, then yeah, of course it's not. So um there are sort of improvements there as well in terms of"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "having the market cap be an input to the um to the OI caps etc. Uh but fundamentally like that actually wasn't the issue like I think the oi caps properly. Yeah. Yeah. Can I can I ask"
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "over uh what was a $4 million short position at that time. And so yes, that is like that is too big. But um you know, you might say you might say like okay like for a vault with hundreds"
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "of millions of dollars um if there's a 3x max leverage asset with a you know $4 million liquidation like like maybe it's reasonable, right? Like of course you know if if you know that there's going"
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "to be this like supply shock and this sort of coordinated squeeze and stuff like that, then yeah, of course it's not. So um there are sort of improvements there as well in terms of"
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "having the market cap be an input to the um to the OI caps etc. Uh but fundamentally like that actually wasn't the issue like I think the oi caps properly. Yeah. Yeah. Can I can I ask"
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you a question around like the decentralization because one of the criticisms has been you know uh like you settled the Hyperliquid price at you know a price that you chose um and there that"
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "you know you mentioned that you're a DEX but it's kind of uh like a like a fugazi um so it's like what is the process to like decentralize over time? Uh do you think that's going to hinder performance? Um"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "like and also like what was it like when the entire situation is happening? uh like you know like like what was going on like when everyone was freaking about like Hyperliquid Hyperliquid uh what was it like in"
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "the war room if you don't mind me asking? Yeah. So I'll I'll take those questions one at a time I guess. So I think there is a lot of FUD um around Hyperliquid naturally. So I think a lot of"
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "a lot of people want to see it fail. Um, basically I would say like the majority of people in crypto kind of wanted to fail except for the people who are who are the true believers and and then now"
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "there's finally this product that uh actually can compete with with all this legacy crud that's lying around. And I think like people are sort of one worried and two just like kind of you"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "know they're like a man like I'm not in this thing. So it makes sense. Um, but I think I I still think it's like quite shocking to me this past week just like the amount of coordinated misinformation"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "um by who like people who I generally respect for their intellect and who I who I imagine sort of like know the truth and choose intentionally to mislead people and then I think there"
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "are other people who you know just see that and take it as gospel and um what are what what what are like the main two or three like misconceptions that you've seen thrown around? Yeah. So the thing"
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "that Taiiki mentioned for example that like it's not it's like a completely centralized operation. Um so for basically like I looked this up it's been uh literally like December of last"
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "year uh was like the there were already 16 validators sort of validating the chain and um so it's not it's not like a recent thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "It's uh uh it's been like this and there's there's plans to further decentralize the validator set um both the number of validators and the stake associated with the validators uh through a delegation program by the"
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "foundation."
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So yeah, like you can definitely say, yeah, I'm not I'm not going to tell you that Hyperliquid is the most decentralized chain out there, but it is it is so much further along that spectrum than than"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "any of these um sort of like lazy critics will give credit for. It wasn't like the choose the choose the validator and then it's like nine pictures of Jeff like in different like uh different"
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "costumes and stuff. So it's not it's not like that. Okay. What's like another you can like talk to the other validators and you can sort of like you can like ask them you know it's like it's it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like no different from other chains except I I will say like Bitcoin and Ethereum are in classes of their own. Um right Solana yet like I think they've made a ton of progress and it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "really cool like they've demonstrated that this like progressive decentralization thing works. I mean even even Solana I mean Solana used to have uh it was like Mallalow brothers had like 18 of the 20 protocols on"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Solana were like two brothers just building them. So uh you know point taken but decentralization is hard right it's like it's like you can't I think if the goal is decentralization then it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "easy there should be a future where finance like actually happens on chain and it is decentralized then you kind of it's it's like a very hard joint optimization problem there and I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "we we're very mindful of it we're very mindful of the criticism but I I would just say it's like like a lot of the the things that they say are just like blatantly false and we'll we'll take the"
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "criticism where where where it's justified like yes you know we we know there are ways it can improve but the the whole thing is path dependent Jeff I mean I have to like tell you like the users care more about"
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "UX than pure decentralization if if the Ethereum would not be at 1762 US dollars if decentralization was like you know the the goal the only goal I understand it's it's you know it's it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "a good thing to have but um uh clearly like the the market is willing to accept a certain amount of progressive decentralization. So I I don't think like that's um that's the main thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "What people do want though is um if they're playing a game and I can relate to this like you want the referee to be like neutral and not like step in and like okay like you're going to win"
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you're not going to win. Um, and I think you guys were in a tough spot there having to um do something because you you have like cornered supply and unlimited losses on a short. Like you"
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "said, it looked fine. 4 million short on a 200 million vault. Like what's the worst that can happen and then it's like okay like actually they get all the supply there's unlimited losses. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So just to correct something. It's I think I think one thing there you said was potentially like another thing that is sort of just being spread is that um it's not like an arbitrary price right"
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "it's it's the price at which the manipulation happened so it's like a very well-defined moment you can like see this trade on chain and the validator set like you know there's like"
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "ultimately consensus is social right and so the validator set you came together was like yeah this is like a fair thing to do um reached unanimous quorum and did the settlement and then the"
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "foundation paid everyone back who was long so that the net effect was favorable right there's no losses no I mean like I didn't say it was arbitrary and actually I've been like one of the"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "main defenders of of this like decision I've said like you know just do it you in essence paid from your pocket from the like to the longs to make sure nobody loses like you said lesson"
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "learned learned cost a little bit of money. Lesson learned. Um like I I I personally thought it was dealt with properly in in this case and the fact that the centralized exchanges let's"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "talk a little bit about about like the the attacks or I don't know if you consume them as attacks. Obviously Binance and OKX listed Jelly of Jelly Jelly or we're about to list it just"
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "just as you listed."
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, do do you view this as like we've seen, hey, we've seen some some messages on Twitter. Do you view this as like proof that they're threatened or was it just like there's volume, we just want"
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "to get volume? Like, how do you like interpret this? I think they took the opportunity. Um, I yeah, I I don't I don't harbor too much ill will towards that. Um I mean I I wouldn't have done"
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "it but uh you know that it's like business is business and um uh I think it's like yeah you know Hyperliquid had the protocol had this problem and yeah yeah you know your your your protocol Solana"
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "does not it should not have like insert exchange does not does not try to screw with like listings and stuff. So, um just like yeah, no no real ill will. Um whether they feel a threat from it or"
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "not, like um it seems it seems more like from the from the comms afterwards from the sort of coordinated FUD spreading that they may they may feel somewhat threatened."
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um I will say we're kind of just like like it's it's weird because I I don't think of Hyperliquid as a direct centralized exchange competitor. I actually think centralized exchanges and"
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "DeFi shouldn't coexist. I think there really is like a place for both. Uh and I view Hyperliquid as like building but really like finance should very significant portions of finance should operate on chain on a"
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "ledger that you know has sort of some enshrined DeFi primitives um but is otherwise performing general purpose and really like just like disintermediates a bunch of stuff and just is like really"
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "the the kind of like original vision of DeFi. I just think this is like the right way to execute that. So really like centralized exchanges I I feel like they they maybe like they maybe like"
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "misunderstand the the mission. Well, I don't think they misunderstand the mission. It's just whether you have a mission or not during this part of the mission, you're competing for the same"
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "uh people who want to speculate on all these tokens. Um whether they're doing it on Hyperliquid or on Binance for you might be very different because of you know you're trying to get somewhere very"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "different than they are. But at this stage it's the same users and it's a big business. It's the biggest business. I mean, maybe Tether is a very big business, but I would say it's even even"
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "bigger business than uh than Tether. We see like, you know, how much Binance makes over the last 5 years. And you guys are making a dent. I mean, it's uh it's appeared on the map and it's it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the first, you know, DEX, let's say, that that is. So whether you view yourself as like in the same category or not, there's billions of dollars at stake for capturing uh you know this"
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "this this amount of users and it this is the biggest PMF in crypto. It's like speculating on the price of coins and doing it with you know capital efficiency in essence. So, um, like you"
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "said, it's it's just business and but isn't it a little bit funny that their their main criticism is that, um, oh, look at these guys. They're actually not decentralized when they're a centralized"
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "platform. So, like even if you're not as decentralized as 100%, you know, they're still like on the other side. Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Their argument is probably like you say you're decentralized, but you're not."
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like we don't say we're decentralized but you know I I feel like there's a much stronger argument which is like you know centralized exchange probably says they're you know doing all the right"
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "things and you know probably not you know you mentioned that users don't care about decentralization but I think I think DeFi does like it is like a product improvement or sort of like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "quantum leap in product uh and yeah users may not most users may not care about decentralization but they certainly care about transparency and permissionlessness I think this is these"
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "are just like strictly better things that uh yeah that that like these centralized exchanges don't provide. And so maybe maybe that is like one argument that at the start of the show you sort"
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "of alluded to this greater vision."
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "You're not just trying to replicate the DEX experience on chain. For those that haven't been following it publicly like can you talk about what that bigger vision is obviously you have the EVM"
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "chain but maybe you can share what you know the five-year plan is. Yeah. So I think Hyperliquid is also another thing that's been sort of misunderstood. Um I think it's you know it's it's out and uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "it's I think some people think it's a separate chain some people think it's supposed to be like a sort of high throughput EVM general purpose competitor something um maybe I can just"
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "give a bit of context on that. So Hyperliquid is is one chain. It has you know one world state and this state consists of um Hypercore which includes the perp decks the most well-known um"
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "includes spot decks uh includes various primitives. They're all built natively."
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "They're all very performant and uh I think they should all scale super well to um basically like house the world's finance and then there's HyperEVM uh there is this diagram. Yeah. So"
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Hyperliquid is one blockchain has one world state and this world split this world state is split into two broad components. There's Hypercore which is the well-known component um includes perp"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "stacks uh also spot decks uh and various other uh DEX primitives that are written natively very performant and should scale to be able to house the world's finance on this one of single state. Uh"
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "and this obviously takes inspiration from Ethereum. uh it's it's it provides the tooling that basically most developers in crypto are are intimately"
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "familiar with and provides them an interface that uh they can basically plug their existing applications into."
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "You can deploy your contracts on HyperEVM um as as if it were any other EVM chain."
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "And I think the the piece that people miss here is like why does Hyperliquid why does HyperEVM exist at all? Like um can't you build on any other chain? uh it's not as it's not as performant yet"
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "as some of these other chains um whatever. But the the key point here is that Hypercore and HyperEVM are not just two isolated pieces. The core value prop here is that the purpose of HyperEVM is"
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "largely to make Hypercore programmable."
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So maybe one like very simple example here is um so spot launched uh almost a year ago maybe and uh allows any anyone to permissionlessly deploy native assets like ledgers like new"
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "ledgers uh onto Hyperliquid but by and large the the valuable stuff in the world do not live on Hyperliquid. So uh there's a whole there's a whole sort of stack around doing this right it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like um bridging sort of crosschain messaging etc. And so with HyperEVM what you basically have is this spot order book which permissionless but as performant as a centralized exchange"
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "um plugged into the world of assets out there. So a great example is you can now uh through uh Uniswap which is a separate team building on Hyperliquid you can now buy and sell native bitcoin and ether on"
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "the Hyperliquid chain. So in my mind this is like better than going you better than sort of like creating a centralized exchange account buying some of this asset which is like not even held in"
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "your wallet uh maybe withdrawing it maybe not. Maybe the exchange you know has some issues. Uh but ultimately it's like that's that's not how DeFi is supposed to work. DeFi is supposed to be"
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "okay like everyone has their own stuff."
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "No one really controls anyone else's stuff and uh I transact it like natively on a chain and the key component here that was missing uh was this programmable layer. So this is there's"
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "one thing I'm really curious about."
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "So because I've been you know I've worked with Mantle a long time and I know the difference between trying to build things internally versus having external teams come in and build. And um"
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "when you're dealing with external teams, there's just like a range of quality, let's say, and there's a lot of people that you know are dev shops, random people. Sometimes if you want to put a"
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "lot of resources, you do it yourself."
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And you guys are clearly builders."
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You've built the most PMF one, which is, you know, the Perp right now."
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You've also built the chain. Um so like two questions. one like how do you think about you know this like one-shotting it yourself and you know you guys we'll eventually get to the next one and we'll"
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "we'll do ourselves versus what all these other chains have been trying to do which is just provide generalized block space and then try to incentivize people to come and they"
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "build the apps versus you building the apps like maybe let's start there. Yeah, it's a good question. Uh the perspective here is a bit nuanced."
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Uh I think letting people build things themselves is definitely the way to scale, especially uh scale in a way that's aligned with uh the ethos of crypto. Um that being said, I think some"
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "things are viewed as applications traditionally uh but I think really ought to be viewed as infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "And so the per order book DEX is one such thing."
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um, you can build a Perp protocol on a generalized chain. You can kind of get some pretty good volumes and probably some pretty good fees uh according to the protocol. But you can't build you"
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "can't build something that scales to provide the world's liquidity for price discovery if it's just like some smart contract competing with the gas of that every other smart contract uses"
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "that uh doesn't have built-in liquidations that doesn't ensure its own solvent uh through mathematical guarantees like all this stuff it sort of points to liquidity as a primitive and not as uh an application."
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So I think the reframing is like it is not our intention to build a bunch of applications. We actually like it's actually very very hard to build good applications and uh what we want to"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "build is stuff that is permissionlessly empowering people to build applications and liquidity is one such thing. Do you think that just launching another EVM and sort of uh hoping to create a new"
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "ecosystem is sort of enough these days or are there other things you can do to support these projects to sort of differentiate because you know as we've seen there's a ton of EVMs even if we're"
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "just looking at the L2 ecosystem and almost all of them have trouble differentiating right it's hard to get users all of the apps are the same we've got our DEXs we've got our lending"
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "market and then maybe we have like a few things here and there that never really get strong PMF how do think about actually building up the EVM from basically zero. Yeah. So, our our view"
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "is that we're not it's like it's like everyone kind of views Hyperliquid as as a competitor, but it's kind of weird because I view Hyperliquid as like very like a very sort of different thing that no one else is"
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "really trying to do. And so, in regards to the EVM, the point is not like sort of like compete with these generalized L2s. I think they're all doing really cool stuff. And uh in many ways that"
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "yeah like like you know this sort of whatever is like like ZK verifiability like all this all this interesting stuff they're doing it's like we're not even touching at all because we just don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "um the Hyperliquid VM really it's like it's not meant to bootstrap an entire EVM ecosystem from scratch. I think like that may happen and I think it's really cool if it does but"
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "um the thing is like what can you do here that you can't do anywhere else and I think the two the two things that come to my mind are one Hyperliquid I think is like such a powerful group of users"
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "uh it's it's like people who seriously conduct their finances on chain I think it's like these these are the people sort of spearheading like how finance will look in the future and and"
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "so like if you're building something for that user base, this like really serious like DeFi power user. I I think you you kind of have to look at Hyperliquid like where else are billions of dollars of"
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "volume transacting onchain and uh like per day. And another thing is like there's no other EVM that kind of plugs into what is sort of like if a big centralized exchange were to like"
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "rewrite their whole system so that anyone could kind of like integrate with it in a very deep way. Uh and I I think this part is is not is not exactly it's not well known yet because it's been on"
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "testnet for test only for a while and it's kind of like gradually rolling out."
  },
  {
    "i": 230,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "It's a very technical rollout, but ultimately I think the powerful thing about Hyperliquid EVM will be kind of like letting a DeFi builder deploy an application that does something that no"
  },
  {
    "i": 231,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "other EVM chain lets them do, which is like access this immense amount of liquidity very flexibly and very cheap."
  },
  {
    "i": 232,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "Yeah, you mentioned liquidity and you know global finance uh like do you have plans on allowing tokenized equities or commodities or forex on Hyperliquid at some point? I think these all will exist on"
  },
  {
    "i": 233,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Hyperliquid at some point. Uh but I think the question is not like what we will offer because I think at this point basically there's so much talent out there and um I I view Hyperliquid's sort of role here as like"
  },
  {
    "i": 234,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "more and more shifting towards uh I made this before of like AWS instead of like Amazon.com. Um, and so like it's so much higher leverage for Hyperliquid to just let everyone else sort of succeed in their own way."
  },
  {
    "i": 235,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "So like unencumbered by anything. So um, yeah, like I think Forex and and you know, everything else you mentioned sort of ultimately should should be should be done on chain. I"
  },
  {
    "i": 236,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "think it's just it's just a better system. like Forex in particular is like a very Yeah, there's like there's like very very sketchy stuff that happens and so um yeah, I think it'll be a huge"
  },
  {
    "i": 237,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "improvement. I think people will will go with it. It's it's interesting cuz like you said there is a there's a core cult of Hyperliquid users. Um, a lot of them have made a lot of money on on what was,"
  },
  {
    "i": 238,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "you know, a huge airdrop and for for a lot of people."
  },
  {
    "i": 239,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, there's like a a cultish fan base, let's say. They have not been very uh friendly with like the broader crowd."
  },
  {
    "i": 240,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "And I'm in these like we mentioned in a previous episode I'm I'm in one of these like Telegram chats and there was a guy being like hey maybe we should be like nicer to the rest of the crypto people"
  },
  {
    "i": 241,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "because we kind of want them to join in and then and then the guy replies like no [ __ ] those guys like you know we're just like standing like this is this is how this is who we are. Um"
  },
  {
    "i": 242,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "ultimately like if you want to be more inclusive I understand like there's a fine balance between uh you've done a fantastic job at being like uh you know very neutral nobody gets preferential"
  },
  {
    "i": 243,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "anything just trying to like keep this neutrality because that's that's a power having that neutrality but at the same time uh it's hard to make partnerships and get more people in and like create"
  },
  {
    "i": 244,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "the kind of business development that has been successful for like you know a Binance or Bybit or whatever or you know choose your like real world company. Um do you think that just by"
  },
  {
    "i": 245,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "being neutral and and like without kind of expanding you might get a little bit stuck in this cult like how do you how do you how do you see that? Yeah. So I think to your to your last point"
  },
  {
    "i": 246,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "uh I think this week actually has has been really eye-opening to me and um just like we're I think I think our team is we're super small and we're good at some things but um we're we're"
  },
  {
    "i": 247,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "actually like really just like learning as as we go and uh it's very humbling to see just like oh for example like on comms like we're we're like quite bad uh we you know we think we're doing the"
  },
  {
    "i": 248,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "right thing we're heads-down building."
  },
  {
    "i": 249,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "We're like trying to just like always make the right decision even in places where like other companies would not uh or or other like you know protocols would not."
  },
  {
    "i": 250,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Um but but yeah like that doesn't that doesn't matter if if everyone else just kind of like tells your story for you, right? So there's like there there are ways in which like I I really think we"
  },
  {
    "i": 251,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "all need to grow and and yeah like telling our stories or like making sure everyone is sort of is like bought into the mission in in like a positive way uh is is really important. And so like"
  },
  {
    "i": 252,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "going to your point of um there being sort of like potentially toxic community stuff going on um I will say it's just like I am personally just you know I I don't endorse that stuff. I I feel like"
  },
  {
    "i": 253,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "there's just there's so much to do, so much to build. It's I feel like there's no point like fighting over stupid [ __ ] like that. Like um but on the other hand,"
  },
  {
    "i": 254,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like I really appreciate the energy. I think it's like I think these people come Yeah. You have to take their perspective too, right? It's like they're coming from a place of like,"
  },
  {
    "i": 255,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "yeah, I believe it is kind of like a bunch of misfits. It's like people who you know believed in this mission early and were rewarded for that for sort of probably for the first time. They were"
  },
  {
    "i": 256,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "rewarded. They got like you know sometimes some cases like you know millions of dollars and now they're ending every tweet with Hyperliquid. So like until they get like $100 per tweet"
  },
  {
    "i": 257,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "ending in Hyperliquid they're going to keep doing that. I will say also there are a few people who are probably very very passionate and I think uh that they don't necessarily speak for the whole"
  },
  {
    "i": 258,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "community. I think everyone's different and like a community it's like healthy for a community it's just evidence that we're not we're not trying to like manufacture anything. It's like let let"
  },
  {
    "i": 259,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "people be who they are. I I will say like you know it would be cool if people were friendlier and more welcoming and I I personally would you know if I were one of I would be like trying to get"
  },
  {
    "i": 260,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "people uh you know get these people you know across the finish line. So like explain to me like oh you're misunderstanding this like um here here's how what actually happens. And the the sad part is Jeff"
  },
  {
    "i": 261,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and and we probably like want to like tap in and you just just bring those guys in. You know I I don't know which part of the curve XRP is. I don't I don't know either. But but but yeah, I"
  },
  {
    "i": 262,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um and and we probably like want to like tap in and you just just bring those guys in. You know I I don't know which part of the curve XRP is. I don't I don't know either. But but but yeah, I"
  },
  {
    "i": 263,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "think bringing everyone in is But do you think like this tribalism comes from like there's a price attached to everything in our industry and like people it's it's fairly zero sum that"
  },
  {
    "i": 264,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "like we haven't had many new users come on in the last few months, right? Like we're all fighting for the same users and like if Hyperliquid does well that means your ecosystem of choice whether it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 265,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Algorand or Ethereum does poorly. I think that's how people think. And I also think and like I'd be curious to hear how like price has impacted the community. Like Hyperliquid seems to have"
  },
  {
    "i": 266,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "done everything right, right? Like it's got a token that has value accrued. Uh there's an EVM that just launched. The project clearly has product market fit and yet the token is still down 70% more or"
  },
  {
    "i": 267,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "less from like the highs, right? Like do you think that causes everyone to get tribal and sort of, you know, excited to fight with each other? Um yeah, I think it probably does. Uh I I will say though"
  },
  {
    "i": 268,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "that it's very shortsighted to think in terms of current price. Uh so Hyperliquid has I I think basically there are not that many projects launching tokens that are actually trying to do something very"
  },
  {
    "i": 269,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "long term. So this is my impression at least just like looking around but Hyperliquid is and so a big part of that is the a very canonical genesis distribution and not having that go basically to insiders investors etc but"
  },
  {
    "i": 270,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "rather to the users. I think this is in in like a post Bitcoin era is like the most the closest you can get uh to something like like Bitcoin and uh and I think that's like but like like that's"
  },
  {
    "i": 271,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "great. I think it's like you might say it's like generous of the protocol to do that. Uh but the downside is like a lot of people just at zero cost basis effectively uh have a ton of value and"
  },
  {
    "i": 272,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "probably you know like diversify a bit or something. I think I think this just like something that kind of has to happen and so like I think it's like it's it's very shortsighted. I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 273,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "price is just it's just irrelevant long term. I think like if if all the finance moves onchain like I think uh then a lot of value will will accrue and it will be a lot more than currently exists. So um"
  },
  {
    "i": 274,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "yeah even if it causes tribalism now I would say it it really shouldn't. Uh that's true. I mean though like like as Warren Buffett said there's there's good companies at bad prices and I think you"
  },
  {
    "i": 275,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "know at a 35 billion whatever the peak was um FDV of you know a new project even though you know you're incredibly talented and you guys are you know building longterm there there's a"
  },
  {
    "i": 276,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "certain point where like yeah Hyperliquid's fantastic but like 35 billion is is like a pretty big valuation. Um and you know now it's it's more it's like around that 11 12 billion. Um I think you know you"
  },
  {
    "i": 277,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "had a lot of revenue and and so like even the fundamental case starts to like look look more realistic here. Um and um yeah like I I think it does matter in that sense. So like maybe like as a"
  },
  {
    "i": 278,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "builder it doesn't matter but for uh investors for the investor side like you know people like me you know I I think here the the price is is much more reasonable and um you know I didn't want"
  },
  {
    "i": 279,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "to hold it when it was very high but you know now I start you know looks good here Hyperliquid looks good here honestly there's a lot of stuff that looks good here yeah and and Jeff's like walking"
  },
  {
    "i": 280,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "the talk right it's like a lot of other founders like oh we know we care about this and that but then they're like just dumping tokens but you know you're actually doing exactly what you said you"
  },
  {
    "i": 281,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "will do. You know, you're like buying back tokens. You're you built this thing. You did a generous air drop. So, um I think stuff like that people actually care about, right? Um I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 282,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "all a lot of the cynicism in the space right now is because of all the insider stuff that, you know, just makes us feel bad about the space, but that's it's always good to, you know, see real"
  },
  {
    "i": 283,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "builders doing stuff with like a longer term vision like you said. Yeah. Well, we we'll uh we'll go to past in a few minutes. Just a couple like quick fire thoughts just to get on like you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 284,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "general things maybe a couple minutes."
  },
  {
    "i": 285,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um I have a few here. Uh you know meme coins. Obviously we had a memecoin cycle. It was Solana memecoins. You know we've talked about this some months ago."
  },
  {
    "i": 286,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "You were aware of like how how much of the activity was being driven by memecoins. What's your thought on like memecoins now? Like is this something that you want to kind of keep as like a"
  },
  {
    "i": 287,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "a focus or like just whatever people happen to trade? like how do you view memecoins right now? Well, I I mean Bitcoin is like the is the best example of a memecoin, right? So, in that sense,"
  },
  {
    "i": 288,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "not much has changed. I think the sort of the pump and dump cycle of meme coins, I feel like [Music] um I don't know. On the one hand, I think it's cool that people can kind of like do what what they want. Uh, I think"
  },
  {
    "i": 289,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like freedom is is cool and I think freedom of expression is is cool. Uh, it's a diplomatic answer. Jeff is willing to like let people trade whatever they want to trade. Bitcoin is freedom of expression. I like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 290,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "But I think Bitcoin, but I think Bitcoin is just like the shining beacon like example, right? It's it's like it's like the best thing in crypto and it's it's a memecoin, right? And uh, another one is"
  },
  {
    "i": 291,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "like stable coins, which is, you know, also the the big product market fit."
  },
  {
    "i": 292,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "We've seen a little bit of drama this week. Uh I I went on Twitter this morning and uh we had Justin Sun on a press conference accusing the Hong Kong mafia of not giving him his money"
  },
  {
    "i": 293,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for his stable coin. I think this is like FDUSD that he was. So like you know stable coin is another industry that is uh very competitive maybe like as much as this as the exchange uh industry. You"
  },
  {
    "i": 294,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "guys have been using USDC I think exclusively as as collateral. you know, that's kind of how it all started. Um, I saw on your chart you had stable coins as like native stable coins was was one"
  },
  {
    "i": 295,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "of the things. How are you viewing this like category of stable coins and and like what what's your strategy on on the stable coin side? Yeah, I think stable coins are one of the most important"
  },
  {
    "i": 296,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "applications in crypto like you said. Uh it's very much like the edge with building stable coins is is almost entirely in like real world stuff, right? like banks and um the compliance"
  },
  {
    "i": 297,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "and and things like that. So, uh it's honestly like probably one of the biggest arguments for HyperEVM existing is that it allows for truly native stable coins on Hyperliquid."
  },
  {
    "i": 298,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Would those would those work as collateral? like if you know XYZ stable coin wants to come build like would that count as collateral or like would if another application have to collateralize it against USDC or like"
  },
  {
    "i": 299,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "how would it actually work to have more stable coins? Uh I think ultimately that the tech will change a lot and so uh I don't think anything anything like USDC is like somewhat enshrined in the"
  },
  {
    "i": 300,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "current implementation because well you got to start somewhere you're not like uh per need an asset. Okay. USDC. But uh I think ultimately like the the platform like Hyperliquid should be should be neutral"
  },
  {
    "i": 301,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "like you said and uh but it should also be like very opinionated on like how it makes the important things possible and like optimized for for those really important use cases. And so like stable"
  },
  {
    "i": 302,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "coins are a great example. So there's I think there's a lot of work to do there, but ultimately I I envision a neutral platform where um you know potentially like a great place for for someone who"
  },
  {
    "i": 303,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "wants to sort of have wide distribution of a stable coin kind of maybe maybe choose it as as the home for it. Yeah, I mean definitely like I think that's the right uh approach and I'm looking"
  },
  {
    "i": 304,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "forward to when you guys will be able to support like a yield bearing stable coin like a treasury stable coin so we can get that extra because you know we have a lot of money on on Hyperliquid we want"
  },
  {
    "i": 305,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "to get that extra you know yield on top that would be nice. Yeah, there are teams building this there are many teams um really interested in I think it's a super big um it's a super big use case"
  },
  {
    "i": 306,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "for basically everything that Hyperliquid has in like the full stack. Awesome. Uh let's let's do a quick uh pasta of the week. Justin, you want to kick off?"
  },
  {
    "i": 307,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Sure, happy to. Uh these these tariffs are not are not great, right? Uh we've been all feeling the pain a little. And Kobe put this this out, which is like so hilarious. Uh so from Star Wars episode"
  },
  {
    "i": 308,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "one, the Phantom Menace, it opens with turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes under outlying star systems is in dispute. Never forget everyone, taxation"
  },
  {
    "i": 309,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "is always the cause of civil unrest. I also want to point out that one of our favorite countries uh renowned for its film making is now been tariffed at 47%. 47% tariff tariffs on Madagascar."
  },
  {
    "i": 310,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Absurd. Uh you know, let these animals just live in peace, right? Oh man, what a [ __ ] show. Uh these tariffs. Uh Jeff, you want to share a pasta with us? Yeah, that's that's Well, I I really like this"
  },
  {
    "i": 311,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "uh Big Bird account. Um, you know, don't know who it is, but whoever you are doing God's work here. Um, I like that you indiscriminately [ __ ] on every project in the space. Um, I think it's"
  },
  {
    "i": 312,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "very funny. We have this um thousand light years saying it, guys. It's it's a brand new perk will attract users with points and referral codes. So, obviously there's been, you know, infinite of"
  },
  {
    "i": 313,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "these come out. Um, do you do you even track the other ones or like you just see like a new one come up every every week? Oh, not not too much. Uh, yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 314,
    "speaker": "Speaker 4",
    "text": "Too too busy u too busy getting shit on by all these other other things. So, no no time to worry too much about this stuff, but I think it's fine. Tiki, how about you? Yeah. So, kind of on a"
  },
  {
    "i": 315,
    "speaker": "Speaker 2",
    "text": "related note, I feel like everyone thought that Trump was supposed to save our bags, but he's literally destroying our bags. So I I just thought this was like pretty funny. It was turn or"
  },
  {
    "i": 316,
    "speaker": "Speaker 3",
    "text": "Monad's turn. He had the layup. He could have just laid it up, done really nothing over these four years and just let us, you know, send to Valhalla, but he wanted to shake things up. I have I"
  },
  {
    "i": 317,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "have another uh ex-guessing. No, signs of uh fraud."
  },
  {
    "i": 318,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "People are saying signs of fraud are indistinguishable from signs of adoption. So now he says signs of incompetence are indistinguishable from signs of 5D chess. So is is this is this"
  },
  {
    "i": 319,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "all 5D chess or are we just doing random [ __ ] Um it's hard to tell. They they look the same. They have the same picture. So we'll see how it plays out."
  },
  {
    "i": 320,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "Um, at least there are some uh some good buying opportunities for for those that are still uh looking out there and deploying. Guys, um I think we'll have to wrap up here. Jeff, uh we we're"
  },
  {
    "i": 321,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "honored that you that you came on. We know you don't do many of these, so thanks for joining the lads. Thanks for having me on. We'll see everybody next week hopefully with uh with more green"
  },
  {
    "i": 322,
    "speaker": "Speaker 1",
    "text": "candles. Take care."
  }
]