[
  {
    "i": 0,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[music] Welcome to the Valor podcast. It's lovely to have you with us. Very excited to have Jeff Yan over here with us as well. Um he is no stranger to many of you."
  },
  {
    "i": 1,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Maybe the first time that some of you are hearing from him. So, we're in for a great conversation."
  },
  {
    "i": 2,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh, very briefly, Jeff Yan is the co-founder and public face of Hyperliquid, one of the fastest growing decentralized trading platforms, blockchains."
  },
  {
    "i": 3,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We'll get into what Hyperliquid is in a moment."
  },
  {
    "i": 4,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh, before Hyperliquid, Jeff studied mathematics, computer science at Harvard, worked in quantitative trading at uh, Hudson River Trading."
  },
  {
    "i": 5,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, and as many of you know, Hyperliquid has since become known for its high performance onchain order book, self-exchange perpetual futures exchange, custom layer 1 blockchain, and a very very community oriented approach."
  },
  {
    "i": 6,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So Jeff, very very welcome to you and thanks for making the time to be here."
  },
  {
    "i": 7,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> Thanks for having me on Farzam. It's a it's a pleasure to be here and I'm excited to discuss what you guys have been working on as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 8,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Thank you. So, so maybe just on that note, what a few comments about what led to this particular podcast. So, Valor will be coming out with a press release in the next few days, depending on when this is actually published."
  },
  {
    "i": 9,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, along with Hyperliquid, um, and some very exciting stuff that we've been doing. Um, we're going to be bringing many markets uh to our customers and particularly with the liquidity of Hyperliquid uh on many of the perpetual futures markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 10,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, we're we're very excited about what that means. Um, and Valor right now, as some of you may or may not know, is the largest crypto exchange and infrastructure provider in Africa."
  },
  {
    "i": 11,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We actually already do spot spot margin perpetual futures ourselves. Uh we've also one of the largest or if not the largest stable coin provider on the continent."
  },
  {
    "i": 12,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We've processed uh over 20 billion dollars worth of stable coins through our wallet infrastructure over the past year. Um and we're actually investing much [snorts] more into the payment space and movement of value for our customers."
  },
  {
    "i": 13,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And so we'll be having some announcements about that uh relatively soon. But for today, um, really excited to kind of bring Jeff onto the show to discuss a little bit about more about kind of what he's doing and who he is, to get to know the person a little bit better."
  },
  {
    "i": 14,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "But before we do that, maybe the first question I'll ask because I'd love to get to know you, Jeff, a little bit better."
  },
  {
    "i": 15,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "um is really that you know you come across and and maybe to say to all of our audience members is that there's actually a lot of information out there about Jeff many podcasts which are wonderful to hear."
  },
  {
    "i": 16,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So we'll we'll try to kind of ask a few questions or I'll try to ask a few questions that are a little bit different to what we've been hearing out there. But I'd love to get to know you Jeff particularly. You come across as someone that emphasizes values and integrity."
  },
  {
    "i": 17,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, where do you think you actually get those values in your life?"
  },
  {
    "i": 18,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Where do they come from? >> It's a good question. I mean, I think the it's hard to know because I think sometimes values are just it just feels like for as long as you can remember, you've just kind of been like that."
  },
  {
    "i": 19,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh, I think my I guess my mom was an immigrant um to the US and so I guess growing up, you know, I was I was no stranger to the hard work and, you know, fair work."
  },
  {
    "i": 20,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think my my mom really as a single parent raising two children, I think she was working full-time and overtime um as an accountant. And I think I think that just seeing that I guess you know it"
  },
  {
    "i": 21,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "instills some kind of value system where it's that the the world doesn't owe you anything that uh you know maybe maybe life isn't the fairest to start. I mean she you know she worked very hard to make sure that her children had as much opportunity as they could compared to their peers."
  },
  {
    "i": 22,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think we're we're very grateful for that. I think it's a it's a very common immigrant story, but uh but you know, it's like it's like no one owes you anything and at least certainly no one no one owed her anything and she had to kind of fight her way kind of struggle her way through those decades of life and that was uh that was inspiring."
  },
  {
    "i": 23,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And then what are some of the pivotal moments in your childhood that you felt led you to where you are today? And there was for the for the listeners there's a fantastic article by Colossus."
  },
  {
    "i": 24,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "If you just look up Colossus and Jeff Yan, there's a really long well-written article. Uh Jeff, you also mentioned how they've done a really good job uh in writing that."
  },
  {
    "i": 25,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So >> they put a lot of put a lot of work into that."
  },
  {
    "i": 26,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So >> yeah, there's a lot there."
  },
  {
    "i": 27,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> If it reads well, it's because of him, you know."
  },
  {
    "i": 28,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "[laughter] >> So are there any specific I know you talked about your mother and the fact that she was really instilling humility into you, but are there specific elements? And I'm also asking as a father of of of two children, um, you know, what are the things that you saw as a child that led you to to where you"
  },
  {
    "i": 29,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "are today? Is there anything that stands out?"
  },
  {
    "i": 30,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, yeah. In the Colossus piece, I guess I kind of talked about how there was kind of this there was kind of a transformative moment when I realized that there was that sort of the world could respect people for their accomplishments as sort of intellectual accomplishments."
  },
  {
    "i": 31,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It sounds kind of dumb, but I just didn't really realize that for the first uh call it 10 12 years of life. And um I think that really clicked for me."
  },
  {
    "i": 32,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like that was really cool because I think I was uh before that I think I was trying to be really good at sports, but it was it was hard for me."
  },
  {
    "i": 33,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like I was I was okay, but then I would uh I'd be like pretty fast among my my my friends like running track, but then I'd go to like a local track meet and would be like completely smoked by someone like didn't break a sweat. And so, um it was cool to see that."
  },
  {
    "i": 34,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that that was a pivotal moment in my childhood just realizing that you can you can build things and kind of use your mind and really just like create value in the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 35,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Awesome. Beautiful. And now looking forward um kind of your childhood where you are right now and looking forward like we'll get to Hyperliquid in a moment but what are your personal aspirations"
  },
  {
    "i": 36,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "for life and kind of what are the values that drive you or that you hope to make manifest in the world um just on a personal basis?"
  },
  {
    "i": 37,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I mean right now it is just Hyperliquid. Uh it's I think there's just like so much to do. It's it's kind of all consuming. It's it's been all consuming ever since the beginning. And I kind of feel like it's got to be like this."
  },
  {
    "i": 38,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh this is probably just what every everyone who's, you know, early to building something in the world who really believes in the vision. I think this is like a common thread. Maybe the only common thread is that you kind of have to have this obsession with with building it and it can't go away."
  },
  {
    "i": 39,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like if if that dies then uh I think that the product kind of goes with it. And so I think that's like a very common uh yeah common attitude, but it kind of leaves not much room for anything else."
  },
  {
    "i": 40,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I kind of don't the days are a blur. It's really just Yeah. >> single single focus right now. >> Yes."
  },
  {
    "i": 41,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Awesome. Awesome."
  },
  {
    "i": 42,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, [clears throat] talking about >> So, it would be cool to talk about like what you guys are uh, you know, how you guys are integrating with Hyperliquid."
  },
  {
    "i": 43,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that's that's something I you know you I don't know if I can ask some questions, but I feel like I'm actually curious how you know what you guys >> You're very welcome. Why you guys here and uh yeah, how Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 44,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "sort of Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 45,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "your your journey to kind of you know this podcast like you know how to do Hyperliquid and um make it >> sure so um so Valor as mentioned so we're about eight plus years old now so we're South African centralized crypto exchange and we'll talk a little bit about that and DeFi in a moment because obviously you're coming from the decentralized centralized finance entity um we I think we have, you know, luckily not been tainted or touched by any of the shenanigans that have happened in crypto over the past eight years and mostly because we've taken a very conservative view of counterparty risk, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 46,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And we have seen that a lot of people were burned in yield whether it was Celsius and things of that nature or BlockFi or obviously FTX. And so we've always kind of taken a very conservative view of building inhouse."
  },
  {
    "i": 47,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So all of our wallet infrastructure is our own. All of our trading engines, liquidation engines, all of that infrastructure we've built inhouse ourselves. um and really to insulate us against things that we may not have insight into, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 48,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um so that's worked very well for us. I think what brought us to Hyperliquid is a you guys have had phenomenal success and we'll talk about that in a moment. Um and speaking very candidly, we had great success with our spot markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 49,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We're the largest ZAR to crypto marketplace in the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 50,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Binance and others are also in South Africa but our ZAR to crypto markets are the largest in the world the most liquid in the world that have the most volume we also introduce spot margin trading to have leverage on that which I mentioned which took a lot of time again to build all that infrastructure and then we also we launched perpetual futures now our perpetual futures markets they're there but as you know perpetual futures are much larger uh in terms of volume than spot markets globally But we didn't see that take off on Valor as much as we saw our spot markets and our and our spot margin markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 51,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And so we still have them there. They're on our platform. Uh we're doing a few million dollars a day um on those markets. Uh which is small in the grand scheme of things. And we obviously want to grow that."
  },
  {
    "i": 52,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "But one of the biggest things as you know is liquidity on any type of a market."
  },
  {
    "i": 53,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, and so we've been looking at Hyperliquid and really um really enjoying how fast and how big Hyperliquid has grown and how deep the liquidity has been on Hyperliquid."
  },
  {
    "i": 54,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And as you probably know, um, liquidity is something on centralized order books that you really need to put a lot of effort into."
  },
  {
    "i": 55,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "you have to pay market makers to come on to make sure that customers are getting a good deal that the spreads are not too wide that they can execute trades uh you know with size that do not lead to"
  },
  {
    "i": 56,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "slippage on the order book and so we thought well Hyperliquid's done a fantastic job creating a tremendous amount of volume and liquidity across a whole bunch of different markets."
  },
  {
    "i": 57,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Does it make sense for us to keep trying to build our own when there are many great players in this space or should we go straight to really deep liquid markets, provide a huge number of markets to our customers and effectively offer a a service to our customers that doesn't have what you guys have from the perspective of a support infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "i": 58,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So obviously Hyperliquid doesn't have a support desk that you can call into and say, \"Hey, I've got an issue. Can you please help me?\" Whereas Valor does. like we have our own customers, we have our own distribution, we have now I think we've"
  },
  {
    "i": 59,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "just crossed the 1.9 million mark on Valor um of total signups."
  },
  {
    "i": 60,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So that's kind of what brought us here which is to say our aspiration is really to serve humanity right is to take the world forward particularly the financial system because it has failed much of humanity particularly from the emerging market perspective uh a lot of the the more sophisticated products or even the basic products if you think about payments um it's so expensive particularly in Africa where you can get up to 20% fees on a particular transaction of just sending some money from one from point A to point B."
  },
  {
    "i": 61,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "It's it's it's almost criminal like how much people have to pay. So, so we don't have any ego from the perspective that it needs to be us and we need to do everything. The reason"
  },
  {
    "i": 62,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "that we have done a lot of the stuff that I talked about earlier was just to protect our consumers and protect ourselves. But over here, there was a beautiful platform in Hyperliquid that had a lot of the liquidity that we needed."
  },
  {
    "i": 63,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And so, we decided to just plug into you guys. And um it's it's we'll see when this goes live, but we'll we're we're launching close to when this uh podcast goes live. But that's kind of the backstory, if you will."
  },
  {
    "i": 64,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, let me let me pause there, see if you have any questions about that, and then I'll get to asking you some more questions."
  },
  {
    "i": 65,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> Yeah. Yeah. There's there's so much to unpack there, but I mean I i mean so much of what you said resonates with me just like it's it's so interesting that the I think the problems in the world are so so simple but so profound and people approach them from different ways, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 66,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like you said, we build, you know, you you build for your users in a way that protects them. And I think that that's clearly worked and that, you know, being the largest exchange in in in the continent is is obviously, you know, like a like a tremendous accomplishment."
  },
  {
    "i": 67,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think the fact that, you know, Hyperliquid, you know, same goals but completely different stack. Your ambitions are beyond, you know, trading, right? Like payments, et like settlement, just just moving value from point A to point B."
  },
  {
    "i": 68,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that this like exactly how we think about it. But like these two approaches to solving these fundamental problems in humanity and like improving the coordination of human behavior and"
  },
  {
    "i": 69,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "fairness in the world and sort of like converging upon like an integration between I think the first of its kind like a you know centralized centralized exchange using uh DEX or onchain markets backbone for uh perpetual futures I I think is a tremendous milestone."
  },
  {
    "i": 70,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think we're going to look back at this and say, \"Wow, like that this this this really was was a turning point.\""
  },
  {
    "i": 71,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so, >> yeah, I mean, we're just, you know, on behalf of our team and the community and every like we're just humbled that you and honored that you guys, you know, chose Hyperliquid and, you know, saw kind >> like I know I know it's not easy to build and as first example of something, but that you kind of saw enough value there and stuck with it and devoted the resources."
  },
  {
    "i": 72,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "because I think we're super excited to support the the launch or or to have supported launch whenever this this airs. Thank you so much."
  },
  {
    "i": 73,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh actually I talked to the team earlier and they were talking about how it was a great integration. Like there's some integrations that are very painful but they said that the integration with Hyperliquid was very was great."
  },
  {
    "i": 74,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh the infrastructure to Hyperliquid was was great. So big congratulations to to you and your small team I might add."
  },
  {
    "i": 75,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh are you guys still at 11 people on the team >> at labs? Yes."
  },
  {
    "i": 76,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I really view the team as >> of course the larger team is much bigger >> right like we I don't think it's a fair comparison like when you compare your you know like you said your team needs"
  },
  {
    "i": 77,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "to build you know support and I assume marketing compliance all all these things and then we kind of all every department other than maybe engineering like the core engineering I think you can point to someone in the ecosystem or a builder or a deployer and say like oh you know that if we're if we're being fair as a comparison like that really is part of the team too."
  },
  {
    "i": 78,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> Thank you."
  },
  {
    "i": 79,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Thank you. And so I didn't I didn't realize because I knew we were probably one of the first, but it sounds like we may be the first centralized exchange that's kind of plugged directly into uh Hyperliquid as a DeFi back end."
  },
  {
    "i": 80,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, I think I was I was listening to one of your podcasts recently and somebody actually asked you whether you think this will happen and this was a few months ago and your response is that it would happen within a year. So I think your prediction on that is correct."
  },
  {
    "i": 81,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So congratulations on that. >> I think I just say that every year though so it's you know you can't give me too much. No, I I think you know actually maybe I've got a whole bunch of questions for you but maybe we'll go straight here which is kind of CEX and DeFi, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 82,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So um when people ask me about the future actually a lot of investors actually when I talk to a lot of investors we have VC money obviously you guys are are are well known not to have taken any VC money but whenever I do talk to investors a lot of their questions come about about Hyperliquid specifically and decentralized exchanges and how I"
  },
  {
    "i": 83,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "personally see this evolving and my response and I'd love to get your response to my response and how you see this world going is I said or I do say that you know the world is changed so much over the past 20 years where for the first time people can actually hold digital assets in a self-sovereign way where they don't have to have an intermediary uh to help them in crypto but Valor is an intermediary right so so why are we there and my response to that is that a lot of people still want a little bit of handholding they want to be able to call a support desk they want to be able to reset their password they don't want to hold their own private keys Right."
  },
  {
    "i": 84,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, so the beauty about the world that we're in is that people have choice, right? If people want to go purely DeFi, they can do that. If they want to go and have somebody else to hold their keys, they need to do that."
  },
  {
    "i": 85,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "I think one of the things that people don't fully explore fully is or properly is the fact that there are risks in all of these models. And I think the main thing is understanding what the risks are and making sure they're appropriate for your risk appetite. Right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 86,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, so I I I'm really excited about this entire ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "i": 87,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "When I say ecosystem, I'm talking CEX, DeFi, kind of moving towards progressing the world forward, but I'd love to hear a little bit about how you view DeFi and CEX and how you think the evolution will look in the future."
  },
  {
    "i": 88,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are many angles to the question. I think the one you mentioned is is key and I think um you know I think maybe the you know freedom of money and independent sort of self-sovereign doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be risky for the user."
  },
  {
    "i": 89,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it can obviously be the the kind of purest Bitcoin me OG mentality where it's like you know your private keys written down or like committed to memory and we'll you'll kind of go to the grave with like you know you can be like that but I feel like that's like a very very very few people in the world and I think there's a whole spectrum of solutions like for example you can hold your own key but maybe there's a recovery a social recovery mechanism and it's uh you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 90,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "so if you lose your key it's not like it's not like everything's gone you just kind of go find a few trusted individuals, a distributed set of trusted individuals, and they can together recover your key, but to the extent that you don't forget your key or lose it, you can you can move your own money around."
  },
  {
    "i": 91,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, I think it's it's still kind of like the kind of you can kind you can kind of have your cake and eat it. And I think these solutions will only get better over time. Um, I think there are other axes too that are also interesting and maybe not discussed as much."
  },
  {
    "i": 92,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh, sort of your the Valor integration on the Hyperliquid rails is is a good example of this where I think things are going."
  },
  {
    "i": 93,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "um which is that I think onchain finance really should be viewed in many cases not as something here to displace the existing financial system. Yes, the existing financial system has areas that need to be improved that that's true of all systems."
  },
  {
    "i": 94,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um and with finance I think it's it just it feels so obvious because of there there are some sort of entrenched inefficiencies like you said 20% uh in Africa just to just to transact is is absurd. Anyone anyone using crypto will think that's absurd."
  },
  {
    "i": 95,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Doesn't matter which network which token whatever you're transferring 20% is crazy. Um >> absolutely. >> But the fact that that's still there just just shows how how entrenched of a problem it is."
  },
  {
    "i": 96,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think the solution there is not to just say like well everyone should just you know switch to switch to these like completely new technologies but rather can we preserve the interfaces the APIs that the legacy or existing merchants and systems use."
  },
  {
    "i": 97,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's it's like the real real world is messy right? You can't just force everyone to switch cold turkey. You want to preserve the same interface but swap out the rails. So really what you're doing is upgrading the financial system."
  },
  {
    "i": 98,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think onchain rails are just a zero to one product improvement in the same way that people used to trade in the pits screaming over each other like the tallest literally the tallest person gets the best fill like that just a few couple decades ago I think that was maybe three decades ago that was how trading was by and large conducted around the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 99,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's hard to imagine"
  },
  {
    "i": 100,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "but now it's you know markets are electronic and I think the next step really is the zero to one improvement of going from centralized electronic backends which are you know having efficiencies to decentralized self-custodial backends which give individuals more freedom and sort of choice like you said uh in their financial lives."
  },
  {
    "i": 101,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So I think that story is slowly unfolding. I think it's taken time. You know, crypto has been around for more than a decade, but this these things really take time and I think finance is so important to people."
  },
  {
    "i": 102,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like money is one of the most core parts of most people's lives. It's not something people want to really experiment with. It's because it's so core to their existence and survival that it uh it really I think there the the protocols need to be battle tested before these transitions can be made."
  },
  {
    "i": 103,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I do think there's going to be once it is made the there will be an inflection point. There will be an exponential because it for the pe for for billions of people in the world this is going to unlock a ton of value."
  },
  {
    "i": 104,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about inflection point."
  },
  {
    "i": 105,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "you talking about more going to DeFi or what does that inflection point look like for you? I think the existing system realizing that it's actually very simple to plug into these backends like instead of maintain but like you know when you integrate a a backend where the you know you guys kind of have full control over the"
  },
  {
    "i": 106,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "product suite you know you can you can control the fees you can control the interface you control the user flows kind of really really everything and the the system's just there to work and to provide the liquidity as infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "i": 107,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think like when when that clicks for people around the world like whether it's brokers, interfaces, applications, exchanges, I think this light bulb moment is going to is going to kind of push everyone to just do it."
  },
  {
    "i": 108,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think it's it's going to it's actually it's actually not that hard to do once you realize that there is value in in doing it because you're really kind of saying, well, let me focus on what I do"
  },
  {
    "i": 109,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "best as a builder, as a merchant, as an exchange, which is knowing my customers and bringing them the best experience and growing my customer base and this other stuff like why don't we like all not just all reinvent the wheel kind of it's it's a hard wheel to invent you like you said bootstrapping liquidity is hard."
  },
  {
    "i": 110,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "let's just let's just use some neutral protocol that provides that uh cheaply and then let's focus on the fun part which is the part that we do well and I think that I think that is the exponential that I'm got you got you so we are about half an hour in but it's time to talk a little bit about what Hyperliquid actually is so I know there's a lot of information out there but at a very brief level like uh what in your own words what is Hyperliquid and what"
  },
  {
    "i": 111,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "have you guys built uh you know as labs and then the broader community."
  },
  {
    "i": 112,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, our tagline is infrastructure to house all of finance and I really do feel like today I want to I want to hone in on the infrastructure bit just because it's so topical for for your for Valor's kind of historic integration."
  },
  {
    "i": 113,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I really don't want to I know I keep pounding it home, but I really feel like it's it's a big deal and I'm you know excited to kind of kind of you know kind of shout it to the world."
  },
  {
    "i": 114,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, Hyperliquid really is it's I think people view it as an exchange and I think that is an aspect to it like certainly like there people probably use it through an interface and that interface to them"
  },
  {
    "i": 115,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "feels like has many exchange like properties that they're kind of probably came from some other exchange and now they maybe use Hyperliquid a specific interface Hyperliquid because they feel like it's a better product."
  },
  {
    "i": 116,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But really when you ask what Hyperliquid itself is, it is more than whatever specific interface or application a user is viewing it really is liquidity infrastructure. So in the same way that uh I I like to use this analogy of AWS."
  },
  {
    "i": 117,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's not perfect but it has sort of many features and it kind of immediately paints a vivid picture in people's minds. Um which is that you know many startups before AWS were reinventing the wheel."
  },
  {
    "i": 118,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "they were acquiring their own server racks, kind of, you know, managing their own power bills, like swapping out computers as they broke and um just really like building the same thing over and over again and struggling with it."
  },
  {
    "i": 119,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think when when AWS came around and said, \"Hey, like we'll handle that, like that's hard and not customer-facing and frankly just like not that interesting to most people who want to build some like a product."
  },
  {
    "i": 120,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "just like let us do that but we'll just focus on this one thing. Do it the best for everyone in the world so that we have like 99 point I don't know how many nines of uptime they have and the world's a better place for it."
  },
  {
    "i": 121,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think I think I think they've created a a ton of value. They kind of like allow this startup boom where a team of a couple you know like a one product person and one engineer can go to a hackathon and build something end to end and like"
  },
  {
    "i": 122,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "serve it to users."
  },
  {
    "i": 123,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think like that that was a huge unlock and I really feel like that's the vision of Hyperliquid is is that the same thing that AWS did for computers and servers and you know I guess now GPUs and things like that uh Hyperliquid can do for liquidity ledgers deployments tokenizations of RWAs etc."
  },
  {
    "i": 124,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's the kind of financial analog to that."
  },
  {
    "i": 125,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So it's a liquidity layer on which anyone can build and there's an additional benefit here which AWS does not have which is why I think it's not a perfect analogy which is that liquidity begets liquidity and so there is a there is a kind of compounding effect where although they're disparate integrations when Valor plugs into Hyperliquid and let's"
  },
  {
    "i": 126,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "say someone like Phantom for example they were analogously to Valor they were the kind of first in a category of you know consumer wallet plugging in and this was last here and um you know these these plug into the same liquidity and I think when flow kind of hits the same markets uh you know all the customers benefit from tighter spreads and thicker liquidity like we said um you know Hyperliquid is actually the most liquid has the most liquid Bitcoin per books just um full stop that that as you know last last I checked so uh this is this is because there's so many disparate users hyperl is actually the most liquid has the most liquid Bitcoin per books just um full stop that that as you know last last I checked so uh this is this is because there's so many disperate users"
  },
  {
    "i": 127,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "plugging into the same so I think it's very beautiful and I think as that scales I think it will really benefit everyone using it."
  },
  {
    "i": 128,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Beautiful. So, let me ask you a little bit more about that. [clears throat] You you talked about you you often talk about housing all of finance. Um obviously a very lofty goal."
  },
  {
    "i": 129,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Is this something where you are one of the houses or is this a winner takes all type of situation? And then what does that mean for others that are trying to build similar things? Like one could say that you know Ethereum has been trying to build similar things."
  },
  {
    "i": 130,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Obviously, they don't have, you know, the perpetuals and the the order books, onchain order books and things of that nature. But how do you envision this? Do you think or is the aspiration that like Hyperliquid will just consume everything and there'll just be one, you know, kind of one uh platform here or are there going to be several?"
  },
  {
    "i": 131,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And maybe to clarify house, I think it's like a it's like a very inclusive house."
  },
  {
    "i": 132,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like a build the house so that finance can come and use the technology but really like what are people building that's who are the customers who who's who's kind of creating the value and and building the empires the businesses on top of it. It really is the same people that are doing it today."
  },
  {
    "i": 133,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "so it's not a it's not meant to like I don't think Hyperliquid is really meant to put any specific business out of business like that. That's that's the interesting thing because I think mostly"
  },
  {
    "i": 134,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "when there's a startup I think I think there's or when you're like pitching a VC I assume one of the things the VC ask you is like oh like who's your you know who's your like competitor who's your like biggest competitor or something like that >> right >> um it's kind of it feels cool to be building something where it's you can point to things that maybe feel threatened by Hyperliquid but I feel like biggest competitor or something like that >> right >> um it's kind of it feels cool to be building something where it's you can point to things that maybe feel threatened by hyperl but I feel like that isn't how it is like that's not how I think about it I think of it as a technology that people can plug into right like for example Bybit is a centralized exchange like many centralized exchanges probably say oh"
  },
  {
    "i": 135,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "that Hyperliquid thing that's like so so so bad like they're like competing [clears throat] and taking taking market share but that's only one that's one way to look at it"
  },
  {
    "i": 136,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "but you could also say like you know we can also just be the liquidity layer and like many many exchanges can come and build and plug in and you know the exchanges haven't lost their users in fact they're probably offering a better experience to their users so I think it's it's a it's a much more collaborative um story than than than the kind of like fighting that um is is so"
  },
  {
    "i": 137,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> yeah company building >> I love that and I agree with it but I think there will certainly be implications for you know other centralized businesses other uh chains as well obviously there are many other"
  },
  {
    "i": 138,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "chains that are actually trying to catch up with Hyperliquid's progress here um so I mean I think you maybe maybe just to share my views a little bit you know when I take a step back there's just there's so many projects happening in this space which is beautiful."
  },
  {
    "i": 139,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, but I think we will look back at this time and a lot of those projects will not be here at all any longer."
  },
  {
    "i": 140,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um, just because, you know, to your point about liquidity, liquidity, we get liquidity, uh, there, you know, there I think they're going to be a few liquidity pools and I think that's healthy for an ecosystem to have a few liquidity pools."
  },
  {
    "i": 141,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "um but there can't be like a tremendous amount of them because then by definition you're you're diluting that liquidity um in across several different venues. Um and I think that goes for chains as well where there are a lot of people that are competing blockchains to to kind of get activity to get people building on top of them etc."
  },
  {
    "i": 142,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um so I think we will see a a drop off with just chains themselves tokens etc."
  },
  {
    "i": 143,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um and I suppose the question to you is that when you and I and I fully take the point that you guys are not competing etc but I think there will be casualties right uh CEX and DeFi in this and so let me just pause there see if you have any comment to that or if I I'll move to the next question if if you don't."
  },
  {
    "i": 144,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, I think there will be in any truly competitive capitalistic economy or global interaction of economies. I think I think people will try things and they will fail and I think that's and that's that's healthy and I don't yeah no no objection to that."
  },
  {
    "i": 145,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Yeah."
  },
  {
    "i": 146,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh so apart from let's say volume liquidity what are some of the metrics that you look at uh like on a daily basis to kind of look at the evolution of the Hyperliquid ecosystem and what are those and it would be great to hear just some data uh about what you're looking at every day that represents the growth of the network and the growth of the platform and the growth of the ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "i": 147,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, this is uh you may be a bit disappointed by this, but I actually don't don't look at metrics all that much. Um I think I think metrics are important, but honestly, I think there are smarter people in the ecosystem who devote a ton of time to to looking at metrics."
  },
  {
    "i": 148,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, I actually look at all these pretty cool thirdparty dashboards. I can send some over. But I think um off the top of my head I know that Hydromancer has has some really cool ones and you know every time I look they have some new ones and um it's it's quite interesting."
  },
  {
    "i": 149,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So you can poke around there and any metric you you can think of like some community member has made some cool dashboard."
  },
  {
    "i": 150,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh but I'm mainly focused on the kind I think it's kind of weird because trading is actually very you know like markets are a very quantitative thing but I actually think I think day-to-day more about qualitative things. I think when I think what we're trying to build is so it's it's like mostly things that don't"
  },
  {
    "i": 151,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "exist."
  },
  {
    "i": 152,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think you'll notice that whenever Hyperliquid does something, it's it's it's often like even if it's based on previous ideas as it's at least some like relatively novel take on it that's I think you'll notice that whenever Hyperliquid does something, it's it's it's often like even if it's based on previous ideas as it's at least some like relatively novel take on it that's like a we we think it's like a zero to one improvement because we think if 10 people have already done this thing then yeah maybe Hyperliquid should do it to kind of at least give users sort of feature parody but it's not that exciting and it wouldn't be something we would kind of like devote our like all of our mind to and so like for example HIPP3 was one example where I think you know it was the first sort of"
  },
  {
    "i": 153,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "permissionless deployment structure."
  },
  {
    "i": 154,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's just like this concept didn't exist before and it really is this uh you know I think Vitalik will probably also at some point you know as you scale plug into more you know deployer markets as well and I think it's like a really interesting synergy between all the different participants the protocol the deployer the interfaces the exchanges um so that's one example where it's like when you think of like what the next thing needs that needs to be built is it can't really be informed by metrics if it doesn't exist already and yeah that's that's kind of like what I really obsess"
  },
  {
    "i": 155,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "but you know the metrics it does ultimately reflect the metrics so if you just look at any spot like you know like volume trailing volume like market like sort of like percentage of total per volume percentage of volume on a specific asset percentage of volume spot percentage of uh you know like sort of like liquidity comparisons etc."
  },
  {
    "i": 156,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "These are things that uh all kind of downstream benefit but I think they I think if you just like micro optimize these things you don't actually uh you even if you care about the metrics that the right thing to do is to just like keep finding zero to one. So let's talk about HIPP4 then."
  },
  {
    "i": 157,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh so HIPP4 is really um allowing for outcome markets to flourish on on on Hyperliquid. There's a lot of beautiful benefits of outcome markets that allow finance to push forward with hedging or having options and things of that nature."
  },
  {
    "i": 158,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on kind of my predicament here, which is to say, I want to bring more products and services to our consumers, but I don't want it to be a predatory product."
  },
  {
    "i": 159,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> I would say a couple things. So one the outcome primitive I don't think is is not inherently tied to any subjective interpretation of it. It is in my mind it is like what like if you think about it at the protocol level it's just a different margining system. That really is what it is."
  },
  {
    "i": 160,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's a different margin system a different payout right? like positions are fully collateralized. So there are no liquidations. There's no there's it's like it's in some sense the most well- behaved derivative you can design which is that both sides it's bounded."
  },
  {
    "i": 161,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Both sides put up the maximum possible loss and then the thing settles according to some oracle offchain and the thing just works."
  },
  {
    "i": 162,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the second thing is that um I think markets and speculation are sort of inherently tied inextricable and the you so you can't I don't think you can have the benefits of free markets without allowing speculation because there it's impossible to define like sort of it is it's impossible there's there's just always going to be a spectrum of yeah sort of variance in outcome and um and expected value in outcome."
  },
  {
    "i": 163,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So when you think about Hyperliquid beyond prediction markets uh you know"
  },
  {
    "i": 164,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "you've called the outcome markets what what else are you thinking about and what are the types of products that you envision that would really help promote the financial world for humanity >> terms of like outcome markets what beyond sort of binary markets I think that I think that the obvious thing is options I think options are really big in traditional finance they have a really important important function which is to let people hedge in different ways like you maybe don't want to delta one hedge but you want you just want some like extreme downside protection and I think options are the the standard way to do that and there hasn't really been a breakout in onchain options and I think the I think the main reason is that it's technically just"
  },
  {
    "i": 165,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like an inherently very hard product to build in a pre-funded way so pers onchain per at least on Hyperliquid are are pre-funded and I it's I think by and large this is this is kind of like an but this is actually not how traditional futures necessarily work and this is actually a huge benefit to to the kind of the resilience of the system during extreme volatility that that positions are pre-funded and I think uh options are like very difficult to build in that way because market makers need to quote a variety of um strikes and and expiries and uh you you can't really expect reasonable liquidity if you I think if you put the if you put any sort of you know even even remotely similar constraints on the collateralizations of of market makers and so um I think outcome markets"
  },
  {
    "i": 166,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "offers some kind kind of uh solution space for this which is like let's try to let's try to build the best of both worlds here where you can have similar payout curves but uh also have the use ma maintain the resilience of the system by pre-funding these positions and so you don't get you don't get you don't get traditional options but you get you know you get maybe something that people can coales around and say you know this is like this is the onchain analog for the payouts we want."
  },
  {
    "i": 167,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> Awesome. Awesome. Um, moving on a little bit to emerging markets where we are. Um, and there might not be any difference from your perspective, but I wanted to ask you in any case is you know the things that"
  },
  {
    "i": 168,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Hyperliquid is building the per the open permissionless kind of credibly neutral financial system. Do you kind of envision that having a unique role in emerging markets specifically? Is there anything that you kind of have thought about that or is it just for the world?"
  },
  {
    "i": 169,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> I think so. I think it is for the world. Um, but I think it's particularly felt in emerging markets is is my is my guess."
  },
  {
    "i": 170,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And it's a it's a bit frustrating to me because I feel like um I feel like the the innovation in in Um, but I think it's particularly felt in emerging markets is is my is my guess. And it's a it's a bit frustrating to me because I feel like um I feel like the the innovation in in onchain finance starts in the ironically kind of starts in the developed world."
  },
  {
    "i": 171,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, >> yeah. >> And because it's like a tech, it's like a tech startup kind of thing. And it's like, you know, like it's ironic because the people who benefit most from it are actually the people who are a bit later to it."
  },
  {
    "i": 172,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think it's not in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal, but uh maybe in some alternate universe like the the like the power users are uh you know are the are the people who benefit the most from it."
  },
  {
    "i": 173,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And in the new in in the new liquidity infrastructure layer the ownership is actually like a lot more globally distributed than than the existing financial system ownership of the existing financial system which is quite concentrated in in the developed world."
  },
  {
    "i": 174,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh I think it's better but I think it's not I would have you know liked to see it be even more kind of egalitarian. Uh if you have ideas on that happy to hear but >> sure I mean I'm sure you guys will play a big a big role in this going forward."
  },
  {
    "i": 175,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Yeah, I think that I think what we're building I think you know there's going to be a lot of leapfrogging uh that we've seen in a lot of different technologies."
  },
  {
    "i": 176,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "um Africa specifically, you know, 54 nations on this land mass, this beautiful continent called Africa with so many different currencies, systems, so much friction across the continent."
  },
  {
    "i": 177,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "And so the reason I'm excited about what we're building uh and when I say we, I'm talking about you, us, the entire ecosystem is just that we're abstracting a lot of the infrastructure from the political obstacles that as humanity have been causing a lot of division rather than unity."
  },
  {
    "i": 178,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Right? So we're kind of saying, listen, there's a better way to do it. We've got the internet. We can just go directly on the internet."
  },
  {
    "i": 179,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So there's a lot of stuff that's going to be there's a lot of catching up when it comes to uh just like even in South Africa right now we're going through a a discussion with our regulators about the role of crypto in in the economy and what that means um and how it relates with capital controls in South Africa etc. So I think there'll be a lot of"
  },
  {
    "i": 180,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "that but I really actually there is a let me try to find it here. It is such a beautiful quote that inspires me a lot. Um, I think you'll appreciate it. Uh, let me just quickly bring it up here."
  },
  {
    "i": 181,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, yeah, here we go. This is from a quote in in in 1999 which is very beautiful. It's from the Bahai international community. It says that it would be difficult to exaggerate the psychological and social impact of the anticipated replacement of the jumble of existing monetary systems."
  },
  {
    "i": 182,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "For many, the ultimate fortress of nationalist pride by a single world currency operating largely through electronic impulses. Right? And I love that because it's saying, you know, we need a better financial system for the world and for Africa specifically."
  },
  {
    "i": 183,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We see this with so many frictions and so many costs. So, I'm I'm I'm really excited about what the system will do for humanity, but particularly for for those that are having to pay the expense of so much friction in our current financial system."
  },
  {
    "i": 184,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Speaking of that, those stable coins, um I wanted to understand your thinking about the role of stable coins. Obviously, that's a big part of our business and moving stable coins for our customers. any high level thoughts about stable coins and the ecosystem and the and whole of finance?"
  },
  {
    "i": 185,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, so I I do think going back to the previous thing I think that was a a very I think it was a very prescient quote and uh it's crazy that that was you know a full 10 years before"
  },
  {
    "i": 186,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> it is crazy right like whenever I like wow that's awesome like 10 years before crypto started."
  },
  {
    "i": 187,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah. Um, very cool. Uh, and I want to say something. Oh, yeah. You mentioned leapfrogging. I think that's like a really good analogy. I hope that's how it works because you know the >> I assume you're referring to how you know countries like um like India are kind of like mobile first."
  },
  {
    "i": 188,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like they kind of skipped >> the uh they skipped the landlines and or they went straight to 5G or whatever 4G 5G. Um, I think I think that would be like incredibly cool to see because in"
  },
  {
    "i": 189,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "sometimes when you don't have as much legacy tech to to kind of work with and integrate with and maintain backward compatibility with, you can be especially uh decisive and make make sort of infrastructure decisions based more on first principles thinking. And I think uh I think that seeing that come out of Africa I think would I think would inspire everyone."
  },
  {
    "i": 190,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think uh you like you said so much so like so much friction so much so so much kind of so much to improve. I think that just seeing that leapfrog to being like the forefront of of decentralized ledgers kind of underpinning finance. I think I think that'd be cool to see."
  },
  {
    "i": 191,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So >> yeah. >> Yeah. going going to stable coins. I think uh yeah, it's it's interesting because I think I think Satoshi would not uh I think I don't think Satoshi was thinking about stable coins at all and he Yeah, I I don't know. My my sense is that that it's a bit of like a he would be like or they or whatever would be like man what that's a compromise."
  },
  {
    "i": 192,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't know. It's not it's not pure."
  },
  {
    "i": 193,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "it's you know whatever but but I think the fact of the matter is it's like it's the product that people want and you look uh I don't think it's a failure of the system I think it's uh it's it's just you I ultimately like systems financial systems all systems need to reflect what the users want and I think when users want to transact I think this is just like a fact that people kind of didn't"
  },
  {
    "i": 194,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "know and I think now it's a truth that is known which is that people like to transact in um stable currencies issued by governments and uh I assume that just like will be the case for for the foreseeable future like maybe not forever but um but yeah I think I think like to the extent that that's what people want then kind of upgrading the like dollar or rand or or whatever whatever stack just upgrading it to be on 24/7 instance settlement backbone is just strictly better for the for the users so I think it's it's really important >> right now to your point this is something that's tremendously useful to society a lot of people are using it."
  },
  {
    "i": 195,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "We're seeing it grow tremendously on Hyperliquid as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 196,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Uh in fact, interestingly enough, our largest books used to be Bitcoin like Rand books, but our stables have like over the last few years just dramatically overtaken uh our Bitcoin books as well."
  },
  {
    "i": 197,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, so we're seeing that across, you know, DeFi, CEX, everything with with with and of course we've seen the payments use case in in in a big they are coming do you think curious on the point do you think payments in Africa specifically like what's your prediction on how they work like do you think they will just be denominated in some like currency maybe like dollar tether or or otherwise that that sort of the market converges on or do you think it'll like be fragmented and there'll just always be this need to"
  },
  {
    "i": 198,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "swap in and out of different currencies >> a great question um you know I think you have to kind of look at it from the perspective of coming from a good place, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 199,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "uh but but I think ultimately that the will of the people prevails and I think when we really take away the divisions of humanity and society which is the man-made borders that divide us um particularly in Africa where these borders were driven by people in a different continent you know a long time ago and that really don't define the ethnic makeup of populations as an example I think ultimately people will migrate towards the most"
  },
  {
    "i": 200,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "frictionless movement of value. Uh that is going to be on a blockchain. Uh I think we both believe that. [clears throat] I think right now it's going to be stable coins."
  },
  {
    "i": 201,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um I think we're going to see quite a little bit of uh resistance ahead of us, but I think ultimately it will resolve itself in the best technology, the most frictionless technology for the people."
  },
  {
    "i": 202,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "But it's better to actually have it on venues like Hyperliquid where there is transparency um and that people can express themselves in the way they want to express themselves."
  },
  {
    "i": 203,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 204,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So I think [clears throat] I think there will be a I think there's going to still be a bumpy road ahead of us to be honest with you from a regulatory perspective."
  },
  {
    "i": 205,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um but I do think that the resolution will be that humanity moves forward in lowcost high-speed uh and just a better financial system for for Africa for emerging markets and for the world. So let me pause there see if you have any comments thoughts."
  },
  {
    "i": 206,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": ">> No appreciate it. That's that's that's insightful."
  },
  {
    "i": 207,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Um I'm not an expert in that space at all. Your thoughts. >> [clears throat] >> So, um, last couple of questions if I may."
  },
  {
    "i": 208,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "What are the biggest risks that you see to Hyperliquid and the biggest are the worries that keep you up at night from an ecosystem perspective? And maybe"
  },
  {
    "i": 209,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "maybe one way to encapsulate that is what is the fairest criticism that you see of Hyperliquid that you think the community should really take seriously?"
  },
  {
    "i": 210,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think a fair criticism that is maybe not unique to Hyperliquid, but maybe is sort of more apparent on Hyperliquid is that I think crypto just or sort of, you know, finance, fintech, crypto kind of needs to figure out a way to get more of the highest quality entrepreneurial talent."
  },
  {
    "i": 211,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh I think right now specifically at least uh it it feels like if you're if you're a fresh grad, you know, just like with kind of like all the options in the world and you just, you know, study computer science or maybe didn't even study any just like you just drop out because so so you can just like go go build things yourself."
  },
  {
    "i": 212,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think I think very few of those people are are looking at crypto or fintech and saying like that's you know that's where that that's where I like see myself making an impact in the world and I think that's something that it's very unfortunate because I think ultimately that's what drives the success of of the space and >> are you are you seeing that because of AI specifically or just other other things?"
  },
  {
    "i": 213,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, I mean it's AI right now, but before AI, I think it was, you know, like I think there's always been something. And I don't I think maybe there was some ironically during the like worst time of crypto when there were like, you know, a bunch of scams like maybe that's like like sort of whatever like like just like these these"
  },
  {
    "i": 214,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "kind of like unscrupulous projects that's unironically probably like like attracted the most attention. Uh I I think unfortunately like the the smartest people don't always actually know like what they would be would have the most impact doing."
  },
  {
    "i": 215,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So if any one of you guys are listen guys or girls are listening to this right now, you know, maybe just I think I think the stuff that looks cool, you know, there's obviously some kernel of truth to it, but I think really you ought to you ought to kind of like look at the world, kind of look at the problems, what interests you, but also like what are the real problems in the world and what are you uniquely well suited to building"
  },
  {
    "i": 216,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "and uh maybe don't take things for like at surface values. I think there's a kind of like there's often a lot of social pressure to like do the things that everyone else thinks are and uh maybe don't take things for like at surface values. I think there's a kind of like there's often a lot of social pressure to like do the things that everyone else thinks are prestigious to do."
  },
  {
    "i": 217,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I would say if you're interested in high performing high high performance systems, you know, distributed systems of like rebuilding financial systems like financial engineering from the ground up from first principles like think about how how the economy ought to work. I think designing sort of markets at scale in a on a on a sort like much more like act from like academic first principles"
  },
  {
    "i": 218,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Concepts taking all the way through to production like that is something that if you if you look at sort of if you look at people who who spend their lives dedicated to like thinking about these things and writing papers like that's kind of like it's like such a like like I think many of those people would have really appreciated like now just this like sort of renaissance of onchain finance happening and and I just feel like the young people today maybe like don't don't have that sense of like like just like just how incredible the the the space is right now and um I think that that's like a criticism but also like something that we can kind of take as our as our mandate to really like spread the word and bring the bring the best minds the best best and brightest."
  },
  {
    "i": 219,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "into the space and >> grow it. And I think we will probably see a few more crises ahead of us um in the financial world."
  },
  {
    "i": 220,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think people will see kind of the need for us to to keep building and offering humanity a better system. And what's the last question I have for you? What is the thing that you're most excited about when you look into the future?"
  },
  {
    "i": 221,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, I'm just I'm I'm just excited to see to see uh what you know, Labs, our team, but also the community just like I I just know personally like how much hard work goes into each and every team and like like what they're putting into building and it's I think it's it's just it's just very hard."
  },
  {
    "i": 222,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's it's um it's a tough it's a tough world to kind of compete and really really bring ultimately to the end user feels, you know, like like I really like that saying which is that, you know, you know, it's any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, right?"
  },
  {
    "i": 223,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like and I think like that's the that's the that's the quality to which we strive and I think that's the quality to which many teams and ecosystems thrive. So like seeing >> seeing that magic >> finally come to be I think that's that's what excites me."
  },
  {
    "i": 224,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Beautiful. So yeah I I'm also very excited about we're going to be bringing about 200 different markets to our customers us based on our integration with Hyperliquid. Um very excited about seeing"
  },
  {
    "i": 225,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "that bothers me a lot about uh many ecosystems is kind of the the us versus them versus kind of building in unity to take the the entire system forward."
  },
  {
    "i": 226,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "So, I love the fact that we have got this, you know, centralized finance and decentralized finance coming together to provide what I hope will be a really beautiful offering to our customers. So, thanks to the team. Please pass my thanks on and thanks to you for making yourself available."
  },
  {
    "i": 227,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": "Wonderful to chat. Maybe we'll do this again. We'll see uh what the future holds, but it's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much, Jeff. >> Likewise. Thanks for having me on, Farzam."
  },
  {
    "i": 228,
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I'm >> looking forward to the launch. >> Likewise."
  },
  {
    "i": 229,
    "speaker": "Farzam",
    "text": ">> Likewise."
  }
]