[
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Some pretty smart people in crypto have only criticized Hyperlid for buying back the tokens every day."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's the main problem with this?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The main problem is that Hyperlid does not have a discretionary buyback program."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "In the same way that Ethereum burns its priority fees, in that same way, Hyperlid burns its protocol fees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Crypto markets have been pretty disappointing for a lot of people."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why should people stay in crypto when there is an AI brain drain?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "My answer to that question is"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Jeff Yan, the founder and CEO of Hyperlquid Labs, building a layer 1 blockchain [music] with an onchain order book exchange generating billions in volume and millions in daily revenue."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "1010 was a good example where there was damage caused because Hyperlid was the only transparent venue."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[music] People kind of like latched on to it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What do you want Hyperlid to be remembered for?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't want it to be remembered for anything, but I hope Hyperlid becomes the internet for money."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Hyperlid is not a crypto company."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "It's a finance company using crypto real."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Can you explain?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think we generally believe in [music] DeFi's values."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think finance is finance and crypto has the potential to upgrade the rails on which people conduct their financial lives."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You often talk about housing all of finance."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What does that mean?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It basically means that the financial system should not be fragmented."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The crypto part of housing all of finance is that the platform on which people do this should [music] not be controlled by a central corporation."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There should be many teams building and when someone builds something that should automatically [music] plug in with other teams building other things and like these kind of network effects really make it a financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's the responsibility that comes with generating billions of dollars like that almost overnight as a founder."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Hi everyone."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "This is the little bit that I know none of you like that can help us make a huge difference for this show and we want to take it next."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "71% of the people who regularly watch When Shift Happens have not subscribed."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And so all I'd ask you if you want to make a huge difference is the following."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "If you've seen this show before and you like it, help me, help my team."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Hit the subscribe button and we'll continue to build this show for you."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Thank you."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What do you think about Singapore?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "What do I think about it?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh it's it's very nice."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, it's a good good place to build."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's super safe."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's modern."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "things work and yeah, it's very boring."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "People say it's people say that as a bad thing, but it's actually a very positive thing for me."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's an amazing finish because you just you just build and it's it's a perfect place to do that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "No distractions."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Yeah, we recorded our last episode about 13 or 14 months ago, just before the hype token launch."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "We had crazy views actually about 700,000 across platforms and then the TG happened."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "A lot of people got rich."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Some people got very rich."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I think about $1 billion was a drop to the hyperlquid community and then this $1 billion became $10 billion in a few months."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How did it feel like watching that for you?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I felt very good."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's it's rare that the people who are early to something can all participate in the upside and gain meaningful ownership over a network."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that it's very special and that's something that I think is one of the things that is uniquely crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think crypto is a bit of a double-edged sword, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "there's a lot of a lot of negativity due to the you know innovative structuring of just like value creation in crypto but I think there's also positive stories and I think it's important to to highlight those and so it was it was very very nice to see because often with [snorts] you know if you're very early to using chatbt it's not like open AI is going to make you rich like maybe you built something really cool but that's if you you know That's like one in a thousand maybe."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But with Hyperlquid or with crypto in general, it's it's very cool that simply by by being early and by providing a valuable service of participating in a network where the network effects are so important, you can become a sort of meaningful owner of the network."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh I think that's very special."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Did you have any moment where you it kind of hit you emotionally like, \"Oh [ __ ] we really pulled this off, but so many other people did not manage to.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, no one specific moment."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's always it's always cool to see the traction, but we don't we're not very at least I'm not really of [snorts] the personality to say kind of, okay, that's cool, like we made it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Sort of."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I'm always thinking the oh, but what haven't we done yet? and like where where should we be and the know the vision is is so big that it's in some sense like I you just know you're never going to get very close very quickly and I think that's that's a positive thing as as well because for me that's the it's it's about the journey not necessarily the destination."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Did you expect that scale of wealth creation?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Not immediately."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I I honestly don't really I also don't really think what I expect at any point."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "We're just trying to do the best we can and we know the direction we're going and what we're trying to build, but we don't really at least I don't write down like I think a month from now would be great if these quantitative metrics were hit."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like that's not that's just not something I do because I think there's so much outside of our control as contributors and we need to focus on we need to focus on doing the right thing and the output you know is is largely a function of what we do but also all these things outside of our control and so um I was definitely surprised though at the sort of the overwhelmingly positive reception."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's very nice to it's very nice to hear things like oh this is [snorts] it's like rare it you people say oh it's cool to see this happening in crypto this was this is kind of like what's supposed to happen and it's rare to find examples when people say things like that and and they say that you know Hyperlid has positively represented what could happen in this space I think that's that brings me a lot of fulfillment because I'm a genuine believer in in this model in free markets and I think there are so many examples that people can point to to say this doesn't work that to be one where you can argue against those haters I think is uh is very nice."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Do you think that it's I mean it's obviously extremely hard to to do what you did but do you think that enough people are actually trying to do the right thing the right way in crypto or in crypto?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, I think there is a general mismatch of between what could get built and the people trying to build it in crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think I think this is probably due to the bad reputation crypto has gotten compared to fields like [snorts] AI or before AI it might have been just traditional more traditional financial projects you could be building."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh I think I think if you're just someone who has a lot of potential and maybe graduated from a good school or maybe just are very talented and want to build something um I think I today at least I think it's I think a lot of these people are not even seriously considering crypto because of all the negative examples and the it's sort of associated with people who want to are not serious about building something but are just kind of want to maybe quickly make some amount of money or something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that's like completely false."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like I just don't think that's the true potential of the space."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So how do we change that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, we're working we just we just build what we believe in and we when I say we, I mean the ecosystem broadly."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like I think Hyperlquid is known for not really caring about what what the meta is or like what you know what people think necessarily about like theoretically about what should be built but we just we just kind of like do what we believe in as a community."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think I think that's probably the best we can do is kind of like lead by example."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there will always be I think as a permissionless network there are always sort of unfortunate examples of people using whatever like trying like using the community in a bit and then just kind of like extracting for personal gain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And it's unfortunate to see that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But by and large, I think we have a we've as a community is like very uh there's there's a great culture and I think if we just keep doing what we're doing as a community, the hopefully, you know, hopefully people pay attention and it generally draws people to building DeFi and crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I think a lot of people are paying attention indeed."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's [snorts] the responsibility that comes with generating billions of dollars like that almost overnight as a founder?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't know if the if that specific if the specific event of the genesis changes anything about the responsibility."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's there's inherently a lot of responsibility in building anything financial and I think if you kind of have to give it your all and even then it's you know it it can feel like there's just so much to do because finance is such an important part of a person's life and when you when someone uses a financial product they are inherently trusting in a very in a way that you don't you don't have to get the same trust to a consumer product."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so yeah, I don't I don't have a great answer in terms of like we we basically just like try try our best and have to we just know we have to execute flawlessly and maybe that means we we move slower."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Maybe that means we [snorts] build things in a way that's much harder to build."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think there are many such examples and and it and it means we have to kind of always be thinking about the principles of designing a system to be so neutral, fair and robust to all sorts of market conditions."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And that doesn't really change with the with the TGE or anything like even before then people were trusting Hyperlid with you know being like an onchain fully verifiable transparent version of what they were tired of in in crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Quick one."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I'd like to thank our friends at Jupiter, the DeFi super app."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Anything you want to do on chain from trading to earning yield, you can just use Jupiter."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Personally, I'd recommend getting the Jupiter wallet on either your laptop or your phone."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "10 times faster and 10 times cheaper than the competition."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You're going to love it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Thank you to the awesome team at Castard, my go-to card to spend my stable coins directly with my Apple Pay to buy anything, food, coffee, hotel night, or plane tickets without having to use a bank ever again."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "There's really this before TG after TG moment."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And I mean, we we did this uh podcast maybe a month before the TG."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And one thing that I always do to test communities because in crypto there is so much fake stuff and BS and it's I mean it's it's a well-known issue, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So I do a picture which we did last time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "We're going to do again today and I post it and see what happens and I saw like these people going completely crazy and I was like holy [ __ ] like this is even bigger than I thought."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So it was this kind of cult but it was kind of like a a cult a bit hidden."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Obviously, there was the people who understood it, but a lot of people in crypto did not understand what's going on, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And then there was a TG."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And then there was all pretty much everything done the right way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And then you went from kind of like a cult within crypto to the entire crypto cult."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Now you have the entire industry behind you."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you make or how do we make Hyperlquid become a cult for people outside of crypto who join?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think you just have to build in a way that provides value to people."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And this is for every builder, you know, whether hyperlid or not."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think ultimately it is it's not about it's not about building a cult though."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The I think the cultlike vibes people associate with Hyperlid is really just people being passionate about a group of people building towards a common goal with a value system that they can really buy into."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that's just because it's kind of rare to find in crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think people really align and it kind of feels like a cult."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I I don't I wouldn't call it a cult because it's I think people people just coming together and to like kind of build things in the right way with the right values and be fair to everyone and create an open financial system to me feels like just uh you know just if I feel like it should be normal and I think to on board the whole world basically we just have to prove as a community that we can we can build things that provide value in a way that the legacy finan cial system cannot and I'm very confident that that we can."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I think DeFi as a whole has always had this this promise and that what there has been up until now has been more of a it's been more of a technical disconnect between the philosophy and what can be built."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "You know, open financial systems are everyone agrees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There's no controversy that this is a great thing for the world and it's just a matter of the execution and sort of not letting like not not letting whatever whether it be like bad people or like your own vices or something like that like get in the way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think there's a bit of maybe there's a bit of that kind of temptation for some builders in the space and I think solve those two things execution and just like do things the right way and I think I think naturally this um this is like a huge technical upgrade to to the financial system and I think people will naturally come on board when uh when it's clear that this is like an upgrade."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's one thing that massively changed on the operational side between this before token generation event moment and after?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Nothing really."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think for me it's it's never really been about creating X dollars of value or something."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's always been just building."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And to me, it felt like [snorts] the genesis felt more it felt more like a an important milestone in the network's decentralization than an operational difference."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like it's not like it's not like because now there's this token that Hyperlid Labs hired 10x the people or something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's not like we were waiting for that to then go like do something for us it was business as usual."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um I think at least on the core protocol side the it had been clear long before DGE that the important there was a very important piece of infrastructure to build which was having [snorts] the entire network run on a custom proof ofstake consensus mechanism and that this was kind of the only way to scale the throughput of the chain without sacrificing UX for end users and That was a big unlock because now now that you have a native token with real supply distribution, you can actually decentralize the stake in the network."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so that felt like a very big milestone."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But yeah, other than that, it felt like yeah, just keep building and don't let it distract us in any any way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How many people do you did you have last time we spoke?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't remember last time, but it hasn't grown much regardless of what that number was."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you explain that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I mean, obviously the the the difference between a centralized company and a decentralized company makes sense."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "People understand it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You have these big exchanges have thousands of employees, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "But if I look at other protocols that are decentralized or working on that, they have way more employees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do we explain that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, one big thing with Hyperlquid is that the the building itself is very decentralized."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I don't think people give that enough credit."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's a much harder way to ultimately build an ecosystem that's coherent and also serves the end user."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, as an example, you know, if you're just thinking about trading, you would think you would think tokenization, whether that's bridging in spot assets from other chains or whether that's tokenizing RWAs, it's it's such a core part of the business that if you look at a centralized exchange, they have teams of people focusing on different kind of uh sources of liquidity."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there'll be a team that, you know, does the crypto stuff."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There'll be a team that probably integrates feeds from traditional finance sources."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There'll be there'll be teams that manage the different multi-igs and like it's it's a very as a centralized organization, you kind of have to have a big umbrella and then you kind of scale horizontally."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And each of these teams probably has their own kind of like a team within its own, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "have yeah it has to have a lead, it has to have um engineers, it has to have they have to they have to have overhead like coordinating with other teams."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh with Hyperlid the the protocol doesn't actually do any of these things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's uh Hyperlid is more like a set of primitives by which anyone can tokenize anything in different ways."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And when you phrase it that way, then maybe the the team is, you know, it's not it's not just the people that Hyperlquid Labs hires to work on the protocol, but rather includes all these builders who are who have massive responsibility building these very important building blocks that other builders then come in and use and plug into."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so it really is decentralized development of the network."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, I think that's that's really the answer."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But there there's that and there's this general answer of like well I mean I I personally just like enjoy working with a fewer number of people who are very very good and very committed to building what we're doing rather than just like a larger set of people who can kind of each do a very small part of the job."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's just a different style of of work and um I've I've always found that it's I I naturally gravitate towards like smaller teams."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you decide what's built internally versus externally?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The the basic answer is if it can be built externally, it should be."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And but that's a that's a tough principle to to really follow because on a case by case basis it's not always obvious whether something should be built internally or externally."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um so I think that I think HIPP3 for example which is a [snorts] a mechanism by which anyone can in some sense tokenize things not on the spot side but like it has a derivative which I think is a much more capital efficient way to tokenize many types of instruments."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, HP3 was a what had never been attempted before and many many I think more people thought it would not work than people who thought it would."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And it was I think it was a good example of really following that principle and not wavering from it because because I I I think the the complaints are are tough to you can't really respond to the complaints when when someone says something like well you know like I I trade on this other platform and they just they just do everything in house and it works exactly like they say it should And um you can't really argue with that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "You have to kind of believe in the principle that in the long in the long run the financial system is a lot healthier if it's built by a robust set of people operating coordinating through a permissionless fair protocol rather than run as one umbrella organization top down."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And maybe maybe you get you get there faster if you do it in a fully centralized way, but you build a much more resilient and robust and ultimately globally scalable system if you build it the hard way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "We'll get back to that HIPP3, HIPP 4 obviously uh and obviously Hyperliquid core values."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I have a question about this 10 or 11 employees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "It's like a lot of people talk about that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you keep them motivated when they get rich overnight?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh, well, if there's nothing I can do, I think it's a bit of we we select for people who we genuinely enjoy working with and we think are the best at what they do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And when you find I think when people are very good at what they do and kind of also have this high integrity bar that we view as a non-negotiable to working with us, it also I think naturally selects for people who are not driven by making a quick financial buck because if they wanted to do that I think and they're so smart then they they can definitely do it in other ways."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I like to think at least the people that we built I'm I'm proud that we we have a very small team at Hyperlow Labs but we're we're high values people and we're um you know we're kind of building it we're we're building it because we gen we love the the tech and the work and the and the grind and and yeah so I mean it it [laughter] like it happened and I think people still are just as motivated and love the problems we're working on and come to work every day and are excited to do what they do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And um I'm sure I'm sure some people will retire."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh you know, we're very supportive of that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think people have contributed a ton to get typog where it is today."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "you have some people who"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "No, no one so far."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So it's it's been uh it's been nice."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like it's another one of those things where I I didn't really spend too much time thinking about it either."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's just like, well, we'll just we'll roll with the punches and and see what happens."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And um but I've been, you know, pleasantly surprised."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I guess everyone's still here."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And it seems like every day during when we chat and talk over all the problems we're dealing with, it seems like I I I don't notice any difference."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "If anything, I noticed people are getting more and more excited about what we're doing and kind of feel more and more ownership of what what they're, you know, what problems they're working on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think uh I think that that's a great sign because that means that means people are motivated not not by the amount of value you can extract by the system, but by the amount of value you can produce."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that's yeah, it's it's very it's it's a good feeling to work with these this kind of energy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Did you guys celebrate at all or you just kept business as usual?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I'm asking that because I think I'm I'm not sure if my memory is fooling me, but I think I read the story of Matang from Paradigm."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "They had this example of it was a web two IPO and they were saying they had all the champagne waiting there and the entire team basically came down, had a glass of water and then just went back to work until like midnight, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So basically there was like [laughter] zuo celebration."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "everyone was completely locked in like how what happened at Hyperlquid Labs when this obviously you're saying this is just a milestone there's all this future thing we need to do is there something that people are celebrating happy about or just like okay this is just normal like this was part of the plan and we just focus on what's next"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "um yeah I don't think there was a I'm trying to remember if there was I don't think there was a"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "means there was nothing"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "celebration Um, yeah, I do think there's a bit of it's it is a bit sad because we're uh if you look back, yeah, there were there were there were many things worth celebrating, but at in the moment there's always more to do and it's never like there's never like a good time to really just like pause and celebrate."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so maybe that's for like decades down the line when when the system is fully run on its you know fully autonomous and uh you know like there's complete everything is complete it's just like a financial system that works maybe then but um but yeah I think when people are not really you know maybe people also celebrate in in their own ways right it's like it's like we don't at least as a as a hyperlabs as a as a company we're not yeah we definitely don't say Hey, like we launched this feature."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Let's like"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "pop the champagne or something."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "It's like definitely not something we really Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "not part of the culture, I guess."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "not part of the culture, I guess."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you test for high integrity?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's a very good question."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I I don't think I don't think there's like a perfect way to do it, but it's it's a bit of just you get to know the person."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so when we interview people at Hyperloop Labs, we just we do a bunch of technical things, but we also make sure we work with them uh for at least a full day."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think when when you're kind of like working with a human being and it's not in a super time constrained simulated environment, you get some sense of what the what the person is like."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Can I think you get I think there are many soft signals you can get for whether someone is you know may maybe there's you know you never know for sure but maybe there are some signals where like you don't want to take that risk and ultimately we we also make sure that everyone on the team feels really good about the hire and so there have been times when some people are for and some people are opposed and usually that just means it's a no."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there's also many independent assessments of the same."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So there's a consensus."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You ask everyone and people kind of vote."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh, it's not really a vote because it's it's like an sort of anyone has a there's nothing formal here, but it's it's kind of like if anyone has a say like a medium to strong, no higher, then that's enough usually to to basically veto the whole thing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "If it's not a hell yeah, it's a no."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I asked you before how much you sleep, how much does the team sleep, how much do you let them sleep or how much do they let themselves sleep?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, it really depends on the person."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The Yeah, we we we really don't we don't push people in the on the input side because I I really think that that's like a recipe for disaster."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like if someone's really needs to sleep and they're not sleeping, then probably anything they do is worse than if they just sleep."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um that basically that the quality of the the quality bar is is so high that even under fully awake circumstances, you know, someone has to really give it their all to be able to to do good engineering."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And um and yeah, so you know, we we we operate with a high degree of trust."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "We also generally don't I don't really believe in the Yeah, like everyone's just like pulling allnighters like like that kind of like kind of flexing that kind of culture."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think is a bit I don't know feels a bit missing the point."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like I personally, you know, work many more hours than I think most people who do flex that kind of culture."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think it's still very unhealthy to say that that is the requirement."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there are many people on the team who do stay up very late and work."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And then there are people who, you know, know they have like x productive hours in a day."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And as long as we as long as they're really sort of producing the A+ output, then it yeah, we don't care."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[snorts]"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Last question on the team, I promise."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "There was a lot of FUD the last few months."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "One of the big fears of people who are community members hold the token was the employee vesting schedule and the fact that uh about $300 million worth of token would hit the market every month for a long time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What has happened instead so far?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, we don't talk publicly about this because I genuinely believe that financial privacy is is a right and that's part of why we're all in crypto and working in DeFi anyway."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And in the same way that you would not ask some community member like, hey, like you you have to tell us like every everything you're doing with because you bought this token and you hold a lot of it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like you must tell us everything you're doing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I just think there's like a there's a line to draw and I think the line is at personal privacy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think I think everything should be very transparent on how the protocol works like every dollar needs to be accounted for."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Every everything in the system belong that belongs to a person like needs to actually belong to that person."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that level of transparency is non-negotiable in a transparent financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "when you don't have that, you have you have all these things that happen with, you know, centralized exchanges."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, but like, you know, what what any contributor chooses to do with their tokens, you know, that's it's their tokens."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's none of my business."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You guys have a pretty interesting way to handle FUD and criticism at Hyperlid."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You ignore and stay quiet."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "That's not true."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think we we address the We used to do that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that my my instincts on this PR stuff I've I've noticed have not always been naturally good."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think I'm happy to defer to people who are much more wellversed in this stuff."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But one thing we've been a consciously trying to do is when there's FUD and my instinct is to say, well, this is clearly false."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like let's the truth will come to light."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like I' i've learned that that is not always the right mentality."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And to be practical about it, we do we do address address things that come up that are false and need to be corrected."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "How do you personally get affected by thud honestly?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um it depends on the category of FUD, I guess."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there I guess there it's been a it's been a relatively volatile and you in the bad direction."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "uh I would say like last half year in crypto and so I think I think 10 10 was a good example where there was a lot of damage caused and because Hyperlid was the only transparent venue, people kind of like latched on to it and I think that I took that very you know like I felt very important like I I was basically on a on a mission I think that that week at least to basically educate people on this on a topic which is very at the same time they you know they take it very it's a very personal thing because people like you know could have lost a lot of money but I think many competitors from all different angles were sort of mispainting hyperlid mispainting its virtues and what it did well with with negativity in a way to like deflect from real problems on other platforms."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that to me feels like it's like very obvious that they know what they're doing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And to me that I, you know, can feel a bit angry about it, but also it's it just drives me to like, you know, get better at, you know, explaining clearly to users like why Hyperlid is built the way it is and why transparency, you know, for example, with centralized exchanges will say, \"Hey, like look, look at this list that some analytic site pushed like Hyperlid had more liquidations than us.\""
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And then we were, it feels so stupid because if you just look at their docs, which no one does, it's like, oh, like we only push the first liquidation in every second."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like no explanation why."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And well, of course, if you add those numbers up versus Hyperlid where you can see every order, every cancel, every liquidation, everything that happens is onchain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Of course, you add up you add up two different numbers, you get you get different, you know, you you see like Hyperlquid's total liquidations is more than whatever it is like 1% of another exchange's liquidations."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, and so that kind of thing is just it's literally just misinformation."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And when that's when the when some of the biggest voices with the most followers in the space do push that kind of narrative, I think it's, you know, we maybe have a smaller reach and smaller voices, but I think we need to be very loud and um before it kind of gets out of hand."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "There's a lot of love from people in the ecosystem, but there's also criticism."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "And third, some pretty smart people in crypto have openly criticized Hyperlid for buying back the tokens every day and said that you guys should stop the buybacks when the price is high, buy back more when the price is low."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's the main problem with this?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, the the main problem is that Hyperlid does not have a discretionary buyback program."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that is that is something that people have run with as a story but it is an in analogy at best."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh Hyperlood is a protocol."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It has it's a rulesbased protocol."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there is in the same way that Ethereum burns its priority fees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "You know it used to go to the miners and now it's burned."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And in this in that same way Hyperlid burns its protocol fees."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "uh you would not ask Ethereum developers to say hey when you know when ETH's price is high really like like Vitalic should take all the priority fees and he he could probably spend it in a better way than Bernie like and that's just like not a that's not a question that anyone asks Ethereum and I so I I think I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanism here and in particular the I think the reason here is that many exchanges mostly like relatively more more centralized operations whether their sort of C5 D5 hybrids or like purely centralized exchanges, they will have tokens and they will buy their tokens back and that is like maybe a fair piece of feedback to them."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But on Hyperlid, the the fees are converted in an automated way to hype and then burn."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And this conversion itself, this strategy is also not discretionary."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It is in fact baked into the execution logic of the chain itself."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So in the same way that when you place an onchain t-wop it is not there is no one sitting there deciding when to split your order when to split out the next slice of your t-wop and send it to the book that is like part of the execution that's part of the state machine itself in the same way the um the execution by which the fees are converted to hype and then burned is purely onchain logic."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why is it so important that there is no discretionary element in what Hyperlid does?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Because Hyperlid is not a company."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that is another kind of misunderstanding."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So when I say we and I say Hyperlid Labs, we're a group of we're we're a group of people."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "We're like you said, we're very small."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "We build we're small because we build a small but critical component of the larger hyperlquid ecosystem."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh yeah, so Hyperlid is not a Hyperlquid itself is not like a a a thing that has an analogy in the traditional finance world."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And people like to people people people don't like to learn new concepts."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "They like to fit something into something they already understand."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And when you try to do that, you can there are some parallels, but there are other things that are just, you know, they just don't fit."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so the the vision at least is that the the financial system should be on chain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's it's great that it's it is producing so much value and sort of driving so much value to to the native token."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that is a positive thing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I but I think it's important to remember that this is not it is not the same way that any company drives value to its shareholders."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like that is like a that is one structure."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Hyperlid is a is a neutral platform on which finance is built."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think in that way it is not a perfect analogy either."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But maybe looking at it from another angle it looks a lot more like like the internet like what the internet did for information Hyperlquid as an ecosystem as a network as a protocol is trying to do for finance."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Last time you were on, we discussed your vision of becoming the Amazon Web Services of liquidity."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Let's discuss what happened since that time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Let's start with the Hyper EVM."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What is the Hyper EVM?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Explain simply, no jargon."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, the Hyper EVM itself is simply a way for people to deploy contracts that they're used to deploying on chains such as Ethereum."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "they can port it over the hyperlquid and it will work."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So it is at a very basic level it is a blank slate on which smart contracts can execute."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So at surface level it looks a lot just like what Ethereum all the innovation Ethereum had is like it's basically taking that and allowing that to live on the hyperlquid L1 state."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Thank you to our friends at Paradex for supporting this show."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Paradex is the leading perpetual decentralized exchange with zero fees, deep liquidity, and privacy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Trade on Paradex by using the link in the description down below at When Shift Happens."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "We're huge believers in freedom, and privacy is at the core of it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "That is why we partnered with Zashi wallet, the easiest self-custody wallet for private transactions."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You can send, receive, and spend Zcash without middleman or surveillance using Zashi, the wallet that was built by the team that launched Zcash in 2016."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's your honest take on the success of the Hyper AVM so far?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I think that's kind of a tricky question."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think well one is I think it's misunderstood that it has not succeeded."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So I'm happy to give many examples of things that's done well but maybe maybe I'll also say that if you drill down one layer deeper than the basic explanation the hypervm is actually a way for these smart contracts for the first time to tap into native primitives that are built onchain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think that is may maybe something which was a bit you know hasn't been caught up."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think I think this needs to be kind of packaged a bit more as a digestible narrative and and I think when people evaluate the EVM they should be evaluating it from this angle that it is a sort of a portal into hyperlquid which is not which doesn't have an analogy with other EVM chains."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think people can can realize that the hypervm is not really that comparable to like other like fully self-contained EVM ecosystems."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So in a nutshell, people don't understand yet this thing fully."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um I think people some people understand it but I think it hasn't really seeped into the public like narrative about it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So maybe one good example is like the like USC for a long time um a criticism was that you know circle hasn't integrated and I think it's because it's very hard to integrate with hyper core."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like a completely implement completely um native implementation of primitives like uh such as like ledgers of balances and I think it's very hard for um for any company that has existing infrastructure to interface with general purpose chains to adopt something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But but the EVM is like this kind of allows a way for native USDC to be minted, you know, fully through fully within Circle's like first class network, you know, hub and spoke kind of network of um supported minting environments like you can burn on any chain, mint on any other chain."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Hyper EVM is one of those chains and I think I think that requires like a very deep understanding of the point of the whole thing and so I think I think there are definitely people who understand that and I think like you can see that the kind of I think the thing is like these integrations actually are when done right are so seamless that they that the user doesn't realize that this is like only made possible because of this unique interaction between hyper core and hypervm and so in some sense It's harder to kind of get the narrative out there that like a hypervm is this like unique thing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "People just say like well I I don't hear about any of these like these EVM success stories like like you said like like you know like what's going on?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like well the the success stories are kind of like well one is I think most of them are yet to be built but two is like the ones that are built well I think feel native."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Another thing that you guys implemented last year that might not have been necessarily easy to understand for most people, but we're seeing concrete result now with is hype um HIP3, the Hyperliquid improvement proposal 3 [snorts] permissionless purp."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What does that mean?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "explain simply or as simple as possible."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um the the simple idea is that pers are one of the great innovations to come out of crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "They actually I think they were academic literature before crypto, but it was it was really BitMEX that made them that demonstrated the practical application of per as a means a more efficient means for price discovery and concentrating liquidity in one instrument that never expires."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And the idea of HIPP3 is simple."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "is it's that there is nothing unique about crypto when it comes to per."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there should be pers on most liquid instruments for which there are futures and options and not saying that per strict improvement over anything but that there should be per because people should have the users should have the option to use pers and I still think today that if per widely adopted in traditional finance finance across many asset classes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think a large percentage of the flow would migrate to perps because pers are the allow those users to best express their views on the views that they want to express and hip 3 is basically just a simply it's just like letting anyone deploy per hyperlquid but behind that sentence there is a lot of work because again like this is this has kind of never been built so uh before hip3 so it was I think there were any open questions like can it can a protocol really really sort of seed over Oracle such important things as Oracle updates in real time to um a permissionless deployer system and there are just many many things to think about there deeply intertwining this like permissionless nature with how purpose and margining and things work you you have all of a sudden have all these different edge cases and thinking through all those and just building something relatively robust around that and also just you know having the builders do the hard work of actually integrating it and putting in the time and the effort to learn something completely new for the first time and so commit to building on it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that just all all of that takes time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so, like you said, it was it was probably I think most people probably thought it just like wouldn't work."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And honestly, we couldn't say for sure that it was going to be a success either, but it felt like it felt like, you know, it should work this way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And Hyperlquid is an in unique place where there's such a strong concentration of talent building and users who are bought into the ecosystem who want to support and bootstrap new network effects."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So it felt like if it was going to succeed like it it should succeed on Hyperlid."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Can you explain the difference between what you guys are doing and what everyone else is doing?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't know about everyone else, but every every sort of non-crypto effort at Pers that I've seen is an exchange that runs a per operation basically saying, well, now we'll get feeds in these other assets and we'll just offer them in the same way that we offer crypto per."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[snorts] So I think you see that across many centralized exchanges and you see that across uh various decentralized exchanges as well."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Why does it matter so much what you guys are doing versus what these other players are doing?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Why should people care?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, users and users should not care about how it works necessarily."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think if you really want to move the financial system on chain then you need you need deployers who are domain experts at what they do doing that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So like if you look at traditional finance there are many different countries right and each country has its own setup for exchanges and there are like many different idiosyncrasies and then you drill down further there are different asset classes right these asset classes are traded on different exchanges different rules and then there are different interfaces to these different asset classes within all the different countries and you just keep subdividing and you find there's actually a lot of specialization in finance and I do think some of that is some of that probably is due to the inherent inefficiencies in the legacy financial system and I do think crypto solves some of that but I also think a lot of it is just because finance is is just too big for one team to build and and you can structure it as I think like probably many of many of The biggest financial companies will adopt this kind of [snorts] still centralized sort of one place for all of finance unifying the user's financial life."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But they'll they will try to accomplish that through a more top- down approach where whether through acquisitions or partnerships or um things like that or just literally building something in house."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "they will try to they will try to house all of finance in that way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think that's a very brittle setup."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think um when things blow up, they often they blow up because there's too much power in the hands of one entity."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And um it's tough because that model does just move faster and it inherently has less fragmentation and maybe initially offers a better user experience."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think users should ultimately ultimately users will use the financial system that gives them sovereignty over their own finances and is access globally accessible and has liquidity or whatever other features they they need."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I I guess I just I strongly believe that to build such a system that can really serve all the users globally plugged into one system that system needs to be decentralized on many axes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "One of which is, you know, ownership, which is which is a a big principle of Hyperlid, but also um decentralized in terms of uh who is building the core primitives that users interact with?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "In one sentence, why is it so important to bring all of finance on chain?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's important because Oh, one sentence."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um it's important because if you don't then the financial system is going to fall behind what like the pace of technological development."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's not it's not going to it's not going to keep up basically like the the world is changing too quickly."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the legacy financial system is not going to is not going to be adequate to to serve users needs in a rapidly developing world."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why is the hyperlquid approach better?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's not really the hyperlquid approach."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think hyperlquid is really just [snorts] espousing the values that DeFi has always had and we are just as a community trying to execute on them in a way that we think has a greater chance of actually succeeding and achieving mass adoption."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so these values are that the financial system should not be controlled by corporations."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "They should be a neutral layer like the internet."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um you mentioned the example of AWS."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that's like another example where AWS is like you know it is controlled by a corporation but in some sense it's like very neutral, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like nobody treats nobody says hey like why are you building on AWS?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "That's such a that's such an opinionated choice, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's like it is just infrastructure."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so um the financial system should have those properties because it should not be it should not be a you should not have to jump through hoops and be citizens of specific wellto-do countries just to access the financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And the financial system should be programmable in a in a very deep sense."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like not not in a not like a system that's not programmable with programmable bells and whistles tacked onto it, which is more of the fintech approach, but it should be built programmably from the ground up."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like the the primitives should be code that you know smart contracts, humans, agents can all interact with."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "If the approach is better, the numbers should be better."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Can you give us some key numbers that show that Hyperlid is doing perpetual markets the right way?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, I I'm still going to say that it is early."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I think that the future is never certain and I think the numbers today don't necessarily reflect like whether long-term it is going to be successful or not."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "That being said, I do think the numbers justify somewhat already the the power of a permissionless protocol that allows deployers to really express creatively express their abilities and sort of execute on their visions."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So um I mean one one key example that's very topical is that silver along with other metals has been um has really taken has really taken the sort of retail and um general like mind share among trading folks."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um I think it's a mix of institutional retail I guess and something like doing 10 sigma moves many days in a row."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's uh it's pretty wild and I think the HIPP3 markets on Hyperlid um predominantly uh Trade XYZ which was the first um deployer um have I believe reached approximately 2% of global price discover like global volume on silver which is a small number but if you think about it in the grand scheme of things It's not that small of a number and no just just given the fact that these HIPP3 markets really launched a few months ago."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh I think it's I think it's quite astonishing and I mean think of credit where credit's due like it's this is nothing to do with the core team like we are we're focused on building the primitives right like a lot of work goes in HIPP3 but how that primitive how that liquidity infrastructure is used is entirely up to the builders who choose to use it and so um I think it really is a testament to the quality of builders who are like choose who are choosing Hyperlid because today because it's the only platform that lets them accomplish what they're setting out to build."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Tell me a bit more about what you said before."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You said the numbers are starting to be interesting, but it's still early and therefore things might not go into that direction."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What makes you say that?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh, I think it's just very dangerous to assume that because you have a belief about something that and there's like some evidence that it's correct that that it's unassalable."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I think the world just changes too quickly."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think it's important to have unassalable principles like the financial system should be accessible to everyone in the world and it you know finance and information should be sort of on the same level of sort of yeah should should be treated similarly in these open systems."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "these principles I don't think I don't think change but I think anything concrete it's very dangerous to fixate on um and I think that's I think a big a big thinking a big motivation behind what what core primitives are built into the blockchain I think I think a lot of what goes into that is a bunch of builders and users from different angles saying that, hey, like this this thing I want to do this thing and like it doesn't really work today."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And [snorts] when a bunch of different people say that and and you notice like some pattern between what they're saying, there's like some intersection and like that intersection is like is like some nugget of like functionality that doesn't exist, then I think I think you can have a lot more confidence that this kind of primitive is the right thing to build to build into the into into a native implementation."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And when you when you're very very selective about what the protocol does versus like what is just done on the EVM general purpose um I think I think you get a much more elegant system that is resilient to what specific businesses you know like you basically create something where builders can adapt to what markets actually are doing without being too you know yeah basically like like moving the opinionated decisions um out of the primitives themselves."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So I think this HIPP all the HIPP3s all the HIPPs including HP3 have this kind of backstory."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "We talked about spot training briefly before and that it was not built by the core team."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "It was built by a team called unit."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What has the uni team demonstrated in 2025?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "The spot trading on hyperlquid."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There was actually there were a few very important launches in 2025 where hyperlid was the leading source of spot price discovery."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think this was the first time that this happened on a decentralized venue."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So I think the I think XPL was one of them."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, I think that the basically the idea behind in some sense spot trading is the closest to Satoshi's original peer-to-peer vision because really when you're trading spot, you are you are essentially transferring funds on a ledger, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like someone is transferring the quote asset to another person and that same person is transferring the base asset, the first person."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so the protocol, the order book, an on-train order book, all of that is just a mechanism to intermediate these transfers."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so if you were to ask Satoshi, how should Bitcoin be traded?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I'm very confident that they would have said that that it should be done in a fully onchain way and that maybe Bitcoin is not necessarily the right network to do it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But uh but it should be done peer-to-peer and you know Hyperlquid does a lot of stuff and this is like very core to the DNA."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I think with spot trading you can really see that when you when all the pieces really are there that users do prefer to do to transact in a way that is coherent with crypto itself."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like they are they are trading spot crypto usually because they are believers in the vision of crypto and DeFi."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "and to be able to finally after so many years transact in a way without sacrificing UX that is still consistent with the technological underpinnings of the asset you're holding itself um feels a bit like going full circle and I think it's uh I think it's it's very cool to see"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "there's some um videos circulating on X about baby Jeff or younger Jeff in 2018 18 launching prediction markets at the same time as Kali where it didn't work out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There are many reasons."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The the best answer is probably just that it like we the people building it were not we weren't ready and it was the idea was really cool."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think we I think we had gotten many things right on the infrastructure side [snorts] offchain matching at that time was the right way to go onchain settlement but there's a lot more that goes into building something successful than simply having the right ideas and the ideas are actually a very very small part of it so I think that it was not obvious to me at least at that time that anyone actually wanted to use onchain products uh towards the end of you know when we when the idea first started it was everyone was super happy and prices were up and then towards the end of that year prices were way down and I think we've seen this many times time and time again in crypto but if if it's your first time seeing it you and you talk to users and you can't literally no one will try your product I think I think it can be very disheartening and so um yeah I think but still like learned a lot learned a lot about what it takes to build and I think Yeah, in some sense the idea kind of lives on, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I'm really glad to see all these other companies who who started, like you said, started around the same time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think you know, they they they did have it have what it takes and and are continuing to they're finally starting to see the the fruits of of their years of hard work and uh sort of general mass adoption."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that's like super cool to see."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I'm really happy for all of them."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Eight years later, you're back with prediction markets or more precisely outcome markets."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What's the difference?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, this goes back to the point earlier where I think primitives on Hyperlid are meant to be as small and self-contained as possible to be simple and performant, but also as broadly useful as possible."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so the the thinking behind so basically outcome markets are the are what I think will be a core way that people express nonlinear beliefs on hyperlquid."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So yeah, so spot and pers are very different, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Spot is the fundamental asset that you hold and when you trade it, you are transferring things on the ledger."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like that is a primitive that obviously should exist on any financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "No controversy about that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Per more controversy, but people are starting to realize that, you know, this is like a a an important enough of an idea that really kind of ought to exist generally for price discovery."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so we were I think HIPP3 was like an early crystallization of that idea and a lot of effort there."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um but if you look at spot and persp while they're very different on many many aspects right they you know per allow leverage more capital efficiency spot represents tokenization of an actual asset um spot per similar in the sense that you can only express linear beliefs like if you hold pers no matter whether you're at 1x or 100x leverage you're still like when the price moves one unit you make n units of profit or loss and um for a wide variety of use cases that is what the user wants and often people who want leverage to trade per actually achieve the leverage because per is not available through things like options which uh are not actually doing what they want to do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um but on the flip side I think there are people who actually do want convexity like nonlinear outcomes for example they want um they want something that is either worth one or zero dollars depending on some something that happens or they want something that is bounded."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So like you might hold some Bitcoin and you might say I'm generally pretty happy holding this but if it drops below some price then I would like to be protected to the downside."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[snorts] These are nonlinear beliefs and you cannot express these beliefs through any combination of spot and per."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so that's this is where outcome markets come in."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And once you have a nonlinear payout structure that outcomes give you um and just just like in case people haven't deduced already, the outcome markets are basically um they're basically fully collateralized uh contracts that where both sides put up some capital and then the the thing kind of settles somewhere in between."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there's like some exchange of um collateral at settlement."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "uh and it could be binary and it could be continuous and so it"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "so for example options prediction markets"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "prediction markets yes"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "do you have another few examples uh that are very concrete that people can think of even even though it's not completely extensive obviously"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "yeah basically anything where you don't want there to be liquidation risk um so people who want to people want to express an opinion where they roughly put up some capital and check back later and they like kind of have more or less and uh yeah there's no there's no complicated thing about like oh like depending on how the price moved I might have been liquidated or or like uh something something more complicated like like also like funding is a complicated mechanism with purps are just like a relatively advanced feature that I think will continue to drive a lot of price discovery But like you said, these these um more yeah these basically different applications."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think options and prediction markets are kind of the obvious ones that come to my mind."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think they're also like derivatives of these ideas that are very popular these days."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like um can we have markets that aggregate opinions in a way where there's no objective outcome but rather the opinions are aggregated towards some goal like maybe like bubbling up the important issues, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "like can we use markets to kind of solve these ideas?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um I think these all fit naturally into um yeah this outcome framework"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "quick one."
  },
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  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You often talk about housing all of finance."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What does that mean?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It basically means that the financial system should not be fragmented."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "That's the all it should you should not have to plug into a bank account and then like you know but if you want to if you want to buy something you need to like transfer the funds to this other account where you then or maybe end other accounts depending on what you want to buy."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think like composibility like having a user's financial life in one place uh is a huge unlock and then but that is not unique to crypto."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um the the crypto part of housing all the finance is that the the platform on which people do this should also not be of controlled by a like a central corporation or something of that sort."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I guess should be there should be many teams building and when someone builds something that should automatically plug in compose with like other teams building other things and like this kind of these kind of network effects um really make it a financial system right so there kind there's like always this trade-off between fragmentation and sort of efficiency um and so I guess like fragmentation fragmentation but compos composability is like one end of the spectrum and then like inefficient but like uh sort of more limited system that's like centrally operated is on the other end of the spectrum and there's kind of like always this there it feels like there's this like constant tension but I think done right you can kind of get the pros of both sides um and that's yeah that kind of that drives a lot of the design philosophy behind what we do"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "you told me that hyperlquid is not a crypto company."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "It's a finance company using crypto rails."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I mean company might not be the right word, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Can you explain?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, I think it is a def I think we genuinely believe in genuinely believe in DeFi's values."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um so in that sense I think it is a we it is like crypto defi are in our DNA."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, but I don't think we identify with being, for example, like a building a crypto the best crypto exchange or something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, that's yeah, that's just not really the vision."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the I think finance is finance and crypto has the potential to upgrade the rails on which people conduct their financial lives."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so that is the goal to which we are building."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so like if Hyperlquid as an ecosystem is to succeed then some people might say hey this is great like crypto was vindicated and that's I think that that's a fine interpretation but then other people will say well there's this new thing that happened and they like use some ideas uh but ultimately it's like it's like a thing of its own and I think that's also an okay interpretation."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Hyperliquid has uh 11 core team members but also has an ecosystem of some of the smartest people and builders out there."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Let's talk about a few of them."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "[snorts] Hyperliquid has a stable coin called USDH."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, basically the about half a year or a year ago there was a big stable coin interest uh broadly across um multiple blockchains."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "The Genius Act passed."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh there was general great excitement about stable coins being the way that the institutions get first introduced to DeFi rails and [snorts] Hyperlquid has a protocolized concept called an alliance stable coin."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And this came after much back and forth with many of the different part uh ecosystem participants."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And ultimately the protocol settled on this way by which yield can flow from the treasuries to a mixture of the protocol and the deployer of the stable coin."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And USC is run by native markets."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "their uh their team of you know a mix of of wellestablished know institutional uh founders and as well as some very strong ecosystem uh community members and so I think they're they're a really good group of people and um excited to see them build out the the premier aligned stable coin uh on the on Hyperlid and these stable coins basically um they're very symbiotic relationship with the builders and apps that end users that use the stable coin."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "For example, the the protocol earns yield and in that way the the holders of hype are aligned with the stable coin and then the traders who use the stable coin also pay lower fees and this is all encoded at the protocol level."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So there's no you know it's a purely objective system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um but we think it's a it's a great synergy and it's going to unlock a entirely new set of use cases that way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What is Kinetic and why does it matter for the hyperlquid ecosystem?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah, Kinetic is the biggest liquid staking token."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um, and they they highlight one of the key parts of the Hyper EVM vision which is that there are these mechanisms."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh we talked earlier about how hypervm sort of uh has windows into hyper core and can use it as tools for the smart contracts and this allows liquid liquid staking to be built uh in a completely onchain way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So usually staking is built at a layer deeper than the application layer."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So the premier liquid staking token um like staked ETH on Ethereum is is tokenized but there's an offchain component to the tokenization on Hyperlid the staking itself these actions and sort of um the read and the write operations required for staking can be conducted via pre-ompiles and the core writer primitives that allow a smart contract contract to tokenize a pool of staked hype in the same way that vaults are tokenized on the EVM on EVMs usually um but also do the staking and unstaking and um accounting uh entirely closed loop like in that system and so it's very cool because it's the first fully onchain u mechanism by which liquid staking tokens can be created and so eliminates all sort of bridging and trust risk that way [snorts]"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "what hyper Hyperland is building important for Hyperlquid."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yes."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, Hyperland is the is the premier borrow lending protocol on the EVM."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "They they've had a they've had a quite a spike in in TVL since launch."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think it's a function of just, you know, constant iteration and and hard work on their part."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And currently, it is fully on the EVM."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, the, you know, suppliers supply collateral and borrowers come and borrow."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there's a there's basically supply and demand marketplace for that determines the the uh rate basically that the that [snorts] the borrowers pay the suppliers and this is a common idea but I think it will become very important when uh portfolio margin on hypercore um leaves the pre-off stage because I guess we never talked about portfolio margin but the the basic idea there is that um traders want to be able to use any asset that they own um or certainly any of their very liquid assets that they own such as bitcoin as collateral and they want to be able to trade anything with that not just a specific market."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So basically reduce fragmentation and also increase the set of assets which help onboard to purpose trading or other types of spot trading."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so for portfolio margin to work in a defi setting, the only safe way to really build it and the kind of reason that it hasn't been built at scale with great success in in a DeFi setting is that it requires a robust borrow lend um backdrop to it because on a centralized venue when when an exchange allows a user to use portfolio margin, they have the power to mint balances out of nothing."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, a user can put Bitcoin up and the exchange can just extend them um a free line of credit to trade um stable coin denominated per example."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And this is a it it's usually okay because the exchange just knows that because there's collateral sitting there, the the fake balance can ultimately be covered by the collateral."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But in the black swan events, I think it's uh this is what leads to bad debt on the platform."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think it's it's to give the exchanges credit like they it's an extremely complicated problem and they've managed it generally pretty well."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um I think these exchanges are are are serious businesses and they they take they take these things seriously and the portfolio margin is a very important feature they offer the users."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But this solution is simply not acceptable for a DeFi platform like a a user because if a D5 platform were to follow this kind of model then the protocol is basically taking risk like anyone who has any funds on the protocol sort of has solveny risk uh for portfolio margin uh collateral gone bad and that undermines the core principles of the system which is that every dollar is accounted for or in some sense if you don't you don't want to you don't want to say if there's a dollar on hyperlquid that dollar actually you know has all these other like asterisks and like um that's just not not a not a trade-off to be made in DeFi and so when there's portfolio margin hyperlquid is a novel system where the lending markets fully back the borrow the borrowing and lending mechanisms of a lending market fully back the portfolio margin operations and this is similar to HP3."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "This is a much more challenging way to build the same feature that users may not even realize is happening behind the scenes, but ultimately is a more robust and scalable way to to um responsibly have a protocol allow this kind of alternative collateral."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And the any spike in demand is not met with increased platform risk but rather met with a brief increase in uh borrow rates which is then met with you know just met with efficient markets uh suppliers coming in and capturing that and basically competing the spread back complete complete competing the yield rates back down to the market rates."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so I see hyperlend and other lending protocols plugging into this in a very uh very symbiotic way."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So the basically portfolio margin hyper core will drive demand out to the EVM and the EVM will be the hyperVm will be the tokenization mechanism by which borrow lend is um achieves uh distribution outside of hypercore."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I saw you say on a panel last year, we have no competition."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I also lost."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I think many people did."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Are you in denial or is there something that most people still don't understand about hyperlquid?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh well, I think the qu the question was probably like who is exactly competing with you or something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think my point was not that I think there are many competitors in some sense because hyperlquid is is something unique at the intersection of many things."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "There are just so many players in finance and I think many people many people view hyperode as competitors where I don't think it's actually correct to do so like I think there's actually a lot of synergy between many different protocols and I think slowly you see this happening where different protocols add hyper as a chain and like just the other day I hear from different builders saying hey like we launched this thing like we're multi-chain like but we launched uh this structure product and and hype on hype and like we're really shocked because this is like the number one the number one product that uh we've launched in the past year or something like that."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So like these stories I think will continue to unfold and so I really think it is there's a general sense of like competition when in fact there should be cooperation and competition."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Um but it's not delusional."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I also I also do just think that Hyperlid is building something that no one else is really precisely trying to build."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think part of that is just because what Hypoid is building is largely a function of where the ecosystem is and how it's gotten to this point today."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's not it hasn't all been fun in games, right?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "You know, I've been working on this for more than three years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think many of the community members have been here for just as long from day one."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there's been there have been many many like ups and downs."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think the trajectory of any ecosystem is it's it's ultimately path dependent."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think the fact that Hyperloop got here with a no insider principle from from day one and this general principle of fairness and welcoming for builders and users."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think just like no matter how much it grows, I hope we hold on to that because I think that is ultimately what drives Hyperliquid to build something that is not uh not really being attempted by anyone else."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Right."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't see I don't see when people launch per like you said like no no no one says like hey like we trust the community we trust builders to come and and execute just as well and there will there'll be fragmentation there will be competition between them but ultimately what's going to come out of that is a more robust system uh I think that story's unfolded many many times hyperl and I think will continue unfolding and each time there will be a doubt about whether the community can come together and build something better than a centralized alternative and uh but we're just going to keep fighting that fight and I think that is the unique thing that we're building that I don't think there's a a I can't point to an exact competitor on on that front."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "You talk a lot about integrity and fairness."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Fairness is cheap to tweet but expensive to implement."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Where did it cost you the most?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It probably cost us in many ways that I don't because I don't ever it's it's not a decision to me ever where it's like should we do the thing that's fair or the thing that's not fair and like let's do a cost benefits now."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "It's just like that's not how we think and so I don't know concretely what the trade-off is."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But I don't doubt that there is like if you if you are willing to compromise on integrity and fairness and you cut the corners then you can grow a lot faster."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think that's just undeniable and you see it and like sometimes like you see you saw it with FTX I think they hypers scaled and they maybe if they weren't caught they would have gotten away with it all."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So um I think for some people it is a it is a costbenefit analysis but I think for us at least it's not it's not that like the cost could be infinite in some sense and we uh we still the the principle itself is un is unalienable."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "What [snorts] do you want hyperlquid to be remembered for?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I don't want it to be remembered for anything."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I just want I want it to be used uh forever."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think the best I think Bitcoin will hopefully have this this fate where it becomes a store of value that is forever in the hands of just like not in the hands of any one power that controls it."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think uh I'm not sure anything else in crypto is going to la you know stand the test of time."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "But um but I but I hope Hyperlid becomes the internet for money."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "[snorts]"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Many founders and investors are burnt out."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Crypto markets have been pretty disappointing disappointing for a lot of people."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Not much has come out in terms of innovation from the space in many years."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "So I figured some words from one of the most admired and respected builders in the space could help keep some talents in the space and give us all some hope."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Why should people stay in crypto when there is an AI brain drain?"
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Yeah."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, my answer to that question is at least from hyperlquid's perspective, we have one very important job as a species and it's there's a ticking time bomb because AI is going to come and basically supplant human intelligence in the near future."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And I think it's it's actually not as close as people think."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "I think AI cannot write good code yet."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh the co the code code that is very important should not be should not be written by AI."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Maybe I'm a bit of a hold out there, but but it's going to happen."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And um before that happens, I think before before AI hits a escape velocity and is self-improving and basically renders human intelligence obsolete, I think there needs to be a financial system to which they can plug in because once intelligence is largely machine driven, the necessarily value transfer will largely be machine driven as well."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And there is no way that AI will plug into the existing financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh which is I'm talking about the legacy one."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Uh there it's just it's just not possible."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Like it's not like code and value are not on the same information and value and therefore code and value are not on the same playing field in the legacy man financial system."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "And so one very important job for us as humans is to build a financial system in which humans have a stake because and that that does is programmable and accessible because if not then um then humans will be cut out of the financial system that replaces it and Hyperlid is in my opinion our best shot and as an extension all builders in crypto you know Hyperlid is not built by one team."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "is it is uh you know I wanted I think it really should be viewed as the a a collective effort to build a family of primitives companies etc that interact and you know when the AI overlords come uh they will they will adopt it because uh it's it's been built well and um and is autonomous and fair and open and permissionless."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Thank you so much Jeff for doing this."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Thank you for giving hope to the entire industry by doing it the right way and setting the standards for an entire new crypto generation of builders."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "A standard was truly needed."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "I and probably the entire crypto space can't wait to see what Hyperlid does next."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "Well, it's still a lot to do."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Jeff Yan",
    "text": "So, thanks for having me on."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest name in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "Newsletter is where I share that raw behindthe-scene alpha, the insights, stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "If you want the real inside take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below."
  },
  {
    "speaker": "Interviewer",
    "text": "[music]"
  }
]